Breaking the Rules of Sports, Vol. 2: American Football

In this episode of Motley Fool Rule Breaker Investing, Motley Fool co-founder David Gardner talks with Kimball Crossley, longtime sports journalist, coach, and baseball scout, about taking a fresh look at America's favorite sport.

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A full transcript is below.

This podcast was recorded on Oct. 14, 2026.

David Gardner: It's that time of year again. America's most popular sport is in full swing, both at the NFL professional level and, of course, the college professional level as well. Football dominates our weekends, our conversations for millions of us, our fantasy leagues. Every week we watch referees throw flags. Coaches make decisions, and fans argue about rules that perhaps nobody had previously thought to question. Well, this week, we're questioning them. My friend Kimball Crossley returns to challenge some of football's sacred cows. Help us rethink a few rules, maybe. Remind us that even America's favorite game has plenty of room for rulebreakers, breaking the rules of sports volume two, American football only on this week's Rule Breaker Investing.

When Kimball Crossley first joined me back in April 2025 for breaking the rules of sports, I invited him to do what rule Breakers love doing, and that's challenge conventional wisdom. Kimball came ready to play. He brought three provocative assertions. First was that momentum in sports is largely a fiction. We love talking about it, and we're not very good at proving it exists. Second, that quarterback is the most overrated position in sports. Well, the most important position in football certainly also the most overrated. Third, that basketball should eliminate the corner three-point shot, which Kimball argued has helped make the modern game increasingly predictable and homogeneous. We're not going to talk about those this time because that's what we did last time. But if you're a sports fan, I think you're going to enjoy that April 2025 podcast.

This one is breaking the rules of sports volume two. It's football season. A lot of people are talking and thinking about football, and that's what we're doing on this week's podcast, as well. Yes, my return guest this week is my longtime friend Kimball Crossley, a sports journalist, podcaster, high school basketball coach, who's also worked as a Major League baseball scout since 1999, most recently, the San Diego Padres now in his ninth season. For years, Kimball hosted Three Point Range. That's a podcast devoted to challenging conventional wisdom. In sports, he continues to blog from Substack at Three Point Range. If you find yourself interested in our conversation this week, especially if you're a college basketball fan, he's going deep into the Xs and Os of the college game on Three Point Range on Substack. But Kimball spent decades thinking critically about the games we love. I'm also happy to say both he and I attended the same New England high school where we happen to both have played varsity football. Kimball, as it turns out, you didn't have enough, nor did I to play football at our alma mater, the University of North Carolina. Did you walk on?

Kimball Crossley: No, I didn't, not after my horrible high school record.

David Gardner: Well, before we get into football, our topic this week, I do want to acknowledge something, and that's that not everybody listening to this week's podcast is a sports fan. Even among those who are, I don't know, American football, it may not be your game. That's perfectly fine. One of the things I've always loved about Rule Breaker thinking is that it travels well, whether we're talking about investing, business, life or sports. Here's what I'd like to do. Kimball, you've come prepared today with some provocative ideas about how to make American football better. But before we get into those specifics, I want you to give us a broader lesson. Think, especially of people who don't care about sports and tuned into this week's podcast. Right up front, Kimball, if you were to abstract what we're really doing this week and then we'll let all the non-sports fans go, what at the heart underlies these things we're going to be talking about about football?

Kimball Crossley: Well, I think it's quite simply the punishment needs to fit the crime, and that probably goes for just about anything in our society. Certainly, I think it's necessary in sports. It undermines sports if it doesn't. As much as I love the NFL, I think there's several areas, a few of them we'll talk about today, where there's no question in my mind that punishment doesn't fit the crime, and it drives me crazy when I watch a game, and I expect that's a lot of our listeners, as well.

David Gardner: Excellent. A lot of us are used to in the short term, the stock market, as has often said Warren Buffett, Charlie Munger, et cetera, in the long term, the stock market is a weighing machine, but in the short term, the stock market is a voting machine. In some ways, I think investors can sympathize with what you've just said, Kimball, because in the short term, stocks can be misunderstood and mispriced. The punishment or the reward may not fit the action or the value of the thing itself. But in the long term, at least in the stock market, I think it's a weighing machine, and I think over the long term, you should be getting the just desserts for better or for worse based on the investment you've made. Now, let me just say, there you go, fools, for the rest of our time together, Kimball and I are going to be bringing ideas to life about American football. If that's your sport, you're in for a treat. If it isn't, you've already got your primary rule-breaker thought to take with you today. Thanks for joining us, and we'll hope to see you again next week. Kimball, let's get into it now. I think you have three provocations. I don't know if that's the right word or not, but three things that you think, if we fix them, football would be a better game. Let's get started with number one. What is it?

Kimball Crossley: Well, definitely, the NFL would be better. I know some of these rules, well, at least one of them is different in college, and I'll start with that one, the pass interference rule, which drives me crazy in the NFL. I guess a couple of reasons that drives me crazy is it's probably one of the harder things to call. It's not something that can be is reviewable. Yet, it's the most damaging to a team if it's called on them. It is just, if you think about it, often the penalty is 30, 40 yards for a hand on his shoulder, or maybe he touched him, or maybe he didn't. But actually, the offensive player created the contact. What's up with that? It's worth three or four holding penalties for just one pass interference. It's always driven me crazy, especially a couple of factors figure in.

There's no question in my mind, if you're in trouble and you're facing third and 20, just chuck it long, have your receiver get tangled up with his defender, and start waving your hands up in the air and crying. There's a good chance it will be all absolved, and you'll get a first down right at the spot, which is crazy, especially for such a subjective, tough thing to call. One of the things that makes it, I heard this weekend that you really pointed this out to me, is, I believe it was Jason Kelsey doing a game. He said that research has shown that you get more of them called for you when the play happens on your sideline. All those histronics and like, Oh, my gosh. Call it. There comes the flag, and it's not a minor flag. You could have a great defensive game. You could hold the team to 47 yards in the first half, but in one play, it all goes away. A solution?

David Gardner: Wait, before you do that, let me step back a second and just reset. Again, we have a lot of die in the bowl football fans, hardcore, who knows exactly what you're talking about. But for those who are just on the periphery and still listening, in football, when you drop back for a pass, as the quarterback looks over the receivers and thinks to whom he should throw, it is not legal for either the intended receiver nor the person defending him. It is not legal for either of them to hold the other guy or push him or shove him or hit early before the pass arrives, and that ends up in a pass interference call, and in contrast Kimball to all other NFL penalties, which are usually five, 10, or 15 yards. This one is spot of the foul, which, as you're pointing out, means that if you throw the ball 57 yards down the field, and you shove me and I'm trying to catch the ball, we get the ball right there, a 57-yard penalty. That is what you have gripes with. It is worth pointing out, I know you know this, that in college football, which is also professional these days, the rule is a little bit different. We can talk about that. But let's go back now to what you think we should be doing instead.

Kimball Crossley: Well, I think, because it is such a questionable call and so subjective, and as you pointed out, you're really not supposed to interfere with the other guy, we see it all the time. We see, Oh, that's OK. He just had a hand on him. He just was touching his shoulder. Oh, they ran into each other, and it feels so random when it's called and when it's not, and it's the biggest call you can make in a game. To lessen that, to make it less severe, my thing is make it half the distance. At least say, you know what? We threw at 57 yards. We'll give you 28.5, because you might not even caught the ball. We could be wrong. It's still a huge penalty. Then maybe you say in flagrant cases where it's just a pure takedown. A guy just tackles the guy before the ball arrives. You can say flagrant, but at least that would be something. If you think about it, half the distance is pretty good. It's still a huge penalty, and maybe you say, it's minimum 10 yards and then half the distance. It's always going to be at least 10 yards. 24-yard pass will get you 12, for example.

David Gardner: Are you thinking this is an automatic first down as well, which is presently the way the rule works? OK, so if you interfere with somebody 5 yards down the field, you're going to get a three-yard penalty and automatic first down because you roughed up that guy as he tried to catch the pass.

Kimball Crossley: It already is an automatic first down. In fact, defensive holding, which is like sometimes the compromise call refs make, because for our listeners, if the ball is in the air, it's pass interference. If the ball is not in the air and you start messing with the guy, it can be called defensive holding, where you're trying to keep him from getting into his route. That drives me crazy because that is often a five-yard penalty, but almost as important as an automatic first down. Again, in that third and 25, I'm telling my guys, Hey, create contact. Like, make it messy. There's no downside. That's the other thing. It's rarely called on the offensive player. Even if it is, on a 57-yard pass, if it's called the offensive player, it's just 10 yards for them. You know what I mean? You're already chucking it long because you're in trouble. It's not like, if it's 57 for us, it should be 57 for you when you create the contact.

David Gardner: This is a really good point. The punishment, as you're pointing out, is not fitting the crime. There are so many angles to take on this, Kimball. You're right now looking at just, like, what the rule actually should be to create a little bit more equity, and I would say logic in the sport. Yet, this is another angle here on the same pass interference problem. It is maddeningly subjective. Maddeningly subjective. What actually constitute one person's hold onto your jersey does not equate to another player could even be in the same game. Then sometimes it's just about pushing or shoving or having your hand on the person. I would agree with you, both we need to re-arbitrate what the actual penalty is. I love your half the distance. I think that's great. Can we ever get more specific about what isn't pass interference? I also love your point that they often call it on the defensive player and not on the offensive player. That doesn't seem right, either.

Kimball Crossley: Well, it's funny because I was going to mention this already. You may have forgotten this conversation, but it might have been 30 years ago, we discussed something like this, and you were like, In football, they should just let anything go. It would almost be better because same things happen, like offensive holding with an offensive line in. There's all these weird things, and you watch the play, and you go, That seems so minor. Then let him play a little bit. You suggested, I like this. I wonder what the game would turn into. But just like, just let him do anything.

David Gardner: Thank you for remembering that, Kimball. Yes, this is my hard-line argument I'll sometimes make. I'm half joking but half serious that there are way too many penalties in football. If this is really a tough man's sport, if this is really football, if you're a pigskin fan and you played the game yourself and you're still a hard-nosed watcher of the sport, you should be fine with people pushing and shoving each other. Who cares about offensive holding? If you want to hold me, I'll throw you down, and I'll hold you first and get rid of you. We would take the whistles out of the refs' mouth so much more often if we dramatically reduce penalties. We'd alI think, by the way, increase injuries, but that's a secondary consideration.

Kimball Crossley: Well, it's funny you mentioned that as well, because one of the things I've noticed this season, and anyone that's watch the NFL is I've seen it's documented that there are, in fact, more penalties than ever before. In some ways, there's a difference where there's been more flags thrown and less accepted penalties or whatever, fewer accepted penalties. But if you've watched any NFL football, you've been driven crazy. I like to think of we're both lover of board games. I don't think either of us is a lover of the board game Trivial Pursuit. Especially if you use the board. Now, trivia contest might be fine, but using the board in Trivial Pursuit, I thought, was the craziest thing ever, because if you've ever done it, every third roll is roll again. Every third spot on the board would be, Oh, I'll just roll again if I didn't get what I wanted. There's nothing more fun than watching a guy roll die three, four, five times in a row and just hop around the board. That's what the NFL feels like at times, because it feels like every third play, actually, that's a penalty. Let's do it over.

David Gardner: There are a number of places we could go right now. I know you have two more provocations we haven't even got to yet, but I think we need to stick with this one a little while longer. Part of it, for me, first of all, who doesn't love super slow-mo these days? That has dramatically improved sports. You and I, a year and a half ago, when you last joined me, we talked about the automated balls and strikes system. You, as a scout looking at in the minor leagues, you knew how good it was going to be. I have absolutely loved the ABS system in baseball this year. I think it's dramatically improved things. We generally want people to get things right. We're watching games with our kids. We want things to be fair, equitable. There should be justice out there. When you slow down football that much, you often see there were even more penalties going on that are already being called, which is, in part, why I think we should reduce the number of penalties. But one thing you can't do, Kimball, is you can't challenge and say, there should have been a penalty called. You alluded to that earlier. Would you talk a little bit more about that right now? The idea of, Hey, we just watch what happened. The ref completely forgot to drop an obvious flag. We'd like to challenge that.

Kimball Crossley: Yeah, no. You're right. I know for a fact that some NFL coaches have said have tried politic and say, why isn't this reviewable? Why isn't that reviewable? It feels so arbitrary what is reviewable and what is not. In the case we're talking about now, I think a 57-yard penalty should be one of the things they'd take a look at and realize, actually, the offensive player grabbed his arm, so we're not going to call it and correct that just huge mistake, much more huge than a couple of inches of, on line and scrimmage or something like that. Absolutely.

David Gardner: All right, number one, pass interference and your specific proposal, Kimball. I'm going to let you say it because it's yours. What is way to Improve football number one?

Kimball Crossley: Pass interference, defensive pass interference, it's minimum 10 yards, but half the distance instead of the whole distance to the spot. Maybe you could have a flagrant call and say, Alright, on a pure takedown, we reward you the whole thing, but I hope that's pretty rare.

David Gardner: For the fun of it, let's pretend that gets adopted in the next few years, which I could see it happening. How would that change the sport? How does that improve the sport? Does it make it more entertaining for fans? Why would the NFL want to do that?

Kimball Crossley: Just as we talked about. Like, I think it would, if you're a team that's victimized and a fan of a team that victimized, you're going to feel a lot less. Especially, it's hard to express this in words on a podcast. But how many times have you sat watching a really tight game where neither team can really move the ball, where every yard is precious, field position, whatever? Then all of a sudden, it's a long pass and a questionable call, and it just changes the complexion of the game. This would definitely bring some sanity to that.

David Gardner: Thank you. Let's move on to way to Improve football. Number two.

Kimball Crossley: Most everybody probably remembers, maybe not the tuck rule, the infamous tuck rule when Tom Brady, in a playoff game against the Raiders, brought the ball down from a pump fake and was going to pull it in, but then fumbled the ball. The Raiders recovered. But then the ref said, No, that's part of the throwing motion when you're tucking it back into your arm. There's all sorts of rules about when a quarterback has hit his arm going forward. Is that a fumble? Is it not? Again, this is another huge call because it's either can be an incomplete pass or their ball right there, the opponent's ball, the defense team's ball right there. That's monumental. That call is so questionable. I can't tell you how many times I've seen him saying like, Well, his arm was going forward, this or that. It brings to mind a couple of other things that I hate about football is when quarterbacks are able to down the ball or ground the ball and talk about a penalty that actually, I don't think the punishment fits the crime.

Another one is grounding. Grounding seems so severe. But you know what? Why not ground it? You know what you get if you're about to be sacked and you ground the ball? Loss of down in the ball where you grounded it, where you were when you grounded it. There's no downside if you do it correctly. If you throw the ball to them, sure. But if you can just spike it into the ground, when you know you're being sacked, it's like, Oh, loss of down, and that's where we get the ball. Same as if you were sacked. What it's led to is quarterbacks are very good now as, as they're going down, they'll throw the ball. Because they're being tackled, they'll almost end up spiking it right at the feet of a defender or an offensive player two yards away or just right into the ground into nobody because they're falling, Oh, I tried to throw it, and my arm was going forward. This is crazy. There's also laterals behind line of scrimmage, whether it's a forward, backward pass.

My simple rule for this is, you know what? You're a quarterback and you either throw the ball or fumble the ball or lose the ball, you throw a pass to somebody on his feet, lateral or forward. You know what? Anything behind the line of scrimmage, that's a fumble. That is a fumble. To avoid that, if you want to down the ball, if you want to clock the ball, if you want to throw it away, great, but it's got to go beyond line of scrimmage. It's got to at least go into harm's way. Then it's an incomplete pass if it hits the ground or goes out of bounds or whatever, it goes off someone's foot and into the ground. To me, that is so simple and so clean. I don't see a downside. Some might say, Well the little shovel pass forward pass, which we often watch a game, and that's dropped and everyone's like, That's fumble. I'd say, No, it's actually a forward pass. I was throwing it a yard ahead of me. Well, I don't see the need for that. Great, you want to make that play, risk it, just like you do with a lateral, a hand off, anything like that, a pitch.

David Gardner: But just to be clear, then, what I'm hearing you say is new rule, if a quarterback has the ball in his hand and whatever his motion is, it might be he tried to tuck it, it might be he tried to dirt it, a verb they're using today. It might be that he actually did fumble it, but if it's behind the line of scrimmage, where the play started that moment, it is a fumble. That includes grounding and intentional grounding, and that's really what you're trying to get away from is the waste of time and ambiguity and like escaping accountability that I think a lot of us are maybe a little bit annoyed by when we see a quarterback just flip the ball away. The key, then, if you're a quarterback, Kimball, you're saying is you need to throw it far enough to get it past the line of scrimmage. At which point it will be an incomplete pass. One thing I can imagine that's happening if you get this rule change is that we don't really spend a lot of time with super slo-mo seeing whether his arm was in motion or not or try to talk it. You referenced Tom Brady because it's a fumble no matter what.

Kimball Crossley: Exactly. When you talk about getting it right and slo-mo, I am for that, but I'm not forgetting that this is a game for the fans and going to college basketball in the last few years, every time there's an out of bounds play in the last three minutes, we'd see if it went off somebody's finger. His finger, and the game goes to a massive ht. I'm not for. That would clean this up because we wouldn't have to sit there and slo-mo it. Any replay should be quick and decisive. If we look at the replay and the call is wrong, we do it. But if we can't tell, we just move on. We don't spend 20 minutes. This would take any of that away. You wouldn't have to look at these plays at all, if it's behind Line of scrimmage, live ball.

David Gardner: The only problem I can see with it right now is that we're going to be super slo-moing to see if the ball, in fact, got past the line of scrimmage.

Kimball Crossley: No we won't.

David Gardner: We're not. Now, I realize that doesn't actually happen that often, but I can imagine a painful replay where we're sitting there going, Did the ball make it back to the line of scrimmage?

Kimball Crossley: We have all replays, like that. When a quarterback is running and he gets a line of scrimmage and throws the ball and he's supposed to still be behind on scrimmage. I think I may be wrong about this because I've only seen this a couple of times. Even surprisingly, the season is we have finally gone to an electronic measurement.

David Gardner: Where's the age? This was the first 30 years or so of our lives, where they always brought out the sticks and the chains, and the referee would hold his hands 4" apart and show that's how far they need to get a first down. These days, it's a lot faster. It's better.

Kimball Crossley: There should be a chip in the ball. If you go past that goal line, we all know it's touchdown, not a 20 car pile up with pulling bodies out and trying to determine did he get past it.

David Gardner: I love that. This isn't even one of the things you brought this week. I don't think this was a provagation.

Kimball Crossley: No.

David Gardner: But you just said chip in the ball.

Kimball Crossley: Yes. Why not?

David Gardner: It makes a lot of sense. There's chips in everything these days, except football. Should there be chips in baseballs?

Kimball Crossley: No. I don't know the technology well enough to know if a chip in a baseball, a baseball obviously is such a fine sport with how you manipulate the ball, pitchers. That would probably be dangerous.

David Gardner: But chips, Kimball, chips are absolutely tiny. We're talking about, you can't even see them. They're that small. I could see a tiny chip in the middle of a baseball that helps us understand.

Kimball Crossley: Well, cost might be a factor there. There's a lot of money in Major League baseball, a lot of balls fly in the stands with chips, whereas.

David Gardner: Parents are being asked to pay $500 for their kids Little League bat these days. I don't think it's going to be that costly.

Kimball Crossley: Football's are recovered from the stands not baseball.

David Gardner: Let's just lock down. Way to improve football, Number 2, can you represent it in a formalistic manner, Kimball, that will help us all remember? Because when this rule, some years from now gets changed, we're going to be pointing back to this podcast and what you said right now.

Kimball Crossley: Well, you did it better than I just a few minutes ago, but I guess any player, it's not just the quarterback, but any player behind the line of scrimmage that either throws or fumbles or loses the ball and it hits the ground, that is a live ball, in other words, a fumble. Anything that goes beyond the line of scrimmage that hits the ground is an incomplete pass.

David Gardner: I think that's a more exciting game, too. There will be more fumbles as a consequence of this rule. I think People like their turnovers. There won't be a crazy increase, I don't think, but I do think that some quarterbacks are going to try to ground the ball, and all of a sudden it's not going to quite have made it where they wanted to, and all of a sudden is fumble.

Kimball Crossley: It's a great example of, if you're in control of your body enough, while you're being tackled or maybe sacked, that you can throw a past line in scrimmage, then obviously you weren't that close to being sacked. If you were so, in the throes of being tackled that you end up throwing it a yard in front of you, guess what? That's probably should be a sack or in our case, a fumble. One thing I want to address because this is more, I don't know, artistic, I suppose. But I despise quarterbacks taking the snap late in the game and throwing it into the ground and getting the clock to stop. Because I'm like, why is that OK? I know why they like it in stopping the clock. But in my case, wouldn't it be more fun if, you want to stop the clock?

David Gardner: Fumble.

Kimball Crossley: Well, you don't do that. But you would throw it like they used, to their sidelines out of bounds, which takes a little more time and takes more skill and not just this weird little bounce pass to yourself. I just don't like that.

David Gardner: I like it.

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David Gardner: Let's move on to Number 3. By the way, right after Number 3, Kimball, I'm going to ask you to speak a little bit to fantasy football. Now, this is a game, of course, being played by 10s of millions of Americans week in and week out for the next several months. I know you played it some. I know you have thoughts. We're going to get to that in a few minutes. But let's go to, way to improve football, Number 3.

Kimball Crossley: This one, you have to imagine what happens when an offensive team is either backed up beneath its own five yard line or at the other team's goal line. What happens now, and coaches, I know they take advantage of this. If you're a defensive team and the other team has the ball 1" from your goal line about to score, there is no downside to you jumping off sides. There is no downside. Because the penalty right now is half the distance because it can't be five yards, which is what it would normally be if the ball was outside the five or outside the nine because it's half the distance inside that. It's 1". You're like, an inch doesn't matter. They're either going to get the inch or they're not. But if we can jump off sides and then start pointing our fingers like crazy and saying we were drawn off sides, which is if you again, watch the NFL, this is going on all the time with the legal procedure, went off sides, and it's always actually, he moved, and he moved. Why not try that because there's no downside to it.

The same thing could be true if you're backed up in your own end zone. Why not try and draw them offsides and get a five yard penalty because you only lose an inch. I've always thought this is preposterous because no punishment. There's no punishment. The punishment doesn't fit the crime when you try it. We see teams manipulate the other team that way. They try and get it. They move, they shuffle, they, bounce around, and they try and get the offensive player to, jerk up, and anticipate the snap and get a five year penalty. Believe me, it's uncanny how often it happens, and it's hard to a heartbreaker when you've driven the ball to the one or inside the one and you think, finally, my team's going to score. It's like, No. Legal procedure, look questionable, we're back to the five or the six.

David Gardner: You know what you're making me think of, Kimball, Zeno's paradox. I studied this in school. Maybe you did, too. I don't remember it that well, but I will say that it's all about how to reach your destination, you have to first travel half the distance to get there and then half that remaining distance. Then, of course, half of what's left to get there, and so on. Forever you never actually make it. Zeno I'm checking it now, Zeno of Elia around 450. BC was there pointing out that if you're always getting halfway toward the goal, you never actually get there, and NFL and college players are taking advantage of that.

Kimball Crossley: Well, this is what it's like to be a long-time Jet span, which is what I am and maybe where so much of this frustration comes from is all the things that can go wrong for my team, and I've seen these teams have. Sure enough, this seems to happen. We finally get where we think we're going to make it happen and something goes wrong, and it's just one of the many things go wrong. A solution for this one, and this one's a little trickier. I've wrestled with the solution. Sometimes I've said you know what? We're not going to give you an inch because it's useless. You know what? They're going to get another down. Now, that could be weird if all of a sudden you start having five downs, so that might be crazy. Or if the offensive doesn't know what? You just lost the down, which they do to offensive teams on penalties, as we talked about with intentional grounding. If you did it on your own 1", trying to create some space, it's like, You know what? No, we're not going to penalize you a half inch. We're taking the down away. Good luck with that. That's one idea. But I also have this idea where you can defer the penalty. If you're an offensive team and the other team jumps off sides and you're already at the 1" line, you're like, We're going to score and then win. You can say, You know what? We're going to pocket that five yard penalty, and you know what? We're going to pull it out when we need it later.

David Gardner: Well, I was thinking in the next kickoff, because, I know you've already thought about this, but you're creating a situation that's bizarre. There's no pocket rule that exists anywhere in football. Unless there is, I know you're going to argue with me.

Kimball Crossley: The punishment needs to fit the crime, David. It needs to be severe because right now there is no punishment. It's absurd. I can just imagine what's going on in the field. If we jump, we've just blown it and we go back five yards. If they jump, who cares?

David Gardner: You're right. It's not right. I agree with that. It's the Zeno's paradox, but we have to solve this paradox, Kimball, because I don't think there's a new pocket rule where you can defer penalties. People are going to start wanting that for other penalties. That wouldn't be useful for us, so we'd like to pocket that one, too. That way it could potentially lie madness.

Kimball Crossley: How about this? We'll meet halfway, and we'll go half the distance. The reason I don't say on the extra point and the kickoff is because often those are useless.

David Gardner: You're right. Fix it into the uprights anyway, whatever.

Kimball Crossley: Even though extra points are harder than they've been in the past because they've moved it back. It's still so what? With the kickoffs have become, I don't know even what they are, absurd anyway.

David Gardner: I I'm enjoying the NFL kickoff these days.

Kimball Crossley: I'm not. it's just too weird.

David Gardner: It is a little weird, but it's better than just a touchback.

Kimball Crossley: You're right.

David Gardner: It's the most exciting play in football, at least, it used to be, because people are moving full speed, which they're not quite now, but at least you can score a touchdown off of it, as opposed to watching the ball sail over your head and start at the 25 or whatever.

Kimball Crossley: It's an improvement over what it was a few years ago when, yes, it was just booted out, and let's get on with it. But going back to when you grew up, it was a very exciting play. I get it. They want to theoretically limit injuries, although I don't really know if that's quick. But, suppose we say you get the five yard penalty on your next play from scrimmage. A defensive team does it. Great. You want to do that? You want to do it once or twice and try to draw the outsides. When you get the ball back, it's first and 15, baby. That would put a stop to it fast. I guarantee it.

David Gardner: I like that a lot, Kimball. The thing about football is, this is a sport that will change its rules from one season to the next more than any other sport I can think of.

Kimball Crossley: Absolutely.

David Gardner: Basketball maybe is a little bit of a second place rival. Baseball for so many years never changed its rules at all. Although part of the optimism of a podcast like this is, you would have thought baseball would never actually change or improve its rules. In recent years, it has consistently done so and led to a better outcome, I think. Better entertainment, more fairness, more excitement, than before they started improving the rules. The NFL is constantly rejiggering its little rules here and there. There are too many of them, I think, is one of the themes to our conversation today. Why not be able to pocket it and have it pop up on the next drive? It's just another NFL rule. One of my favorite things watching football, Kimball, is when the announcers themselves, who have played the game, their whole lives, and they've called the game usually for 5, 10, 15 years. They don't know the rules themselves because there's so many contingencies and fiddly rules in the NFL, and they change from one year to the next. When the announcers themselves, who take pride in having played the game their whole life, don't know what's going on, it makes me smile.

Kimball Crossley: I will make a small digression here. I'm really not contractually allowed to talk about baseball. I'm not allowed to write about baseball. That's why I write about college basketball. But I think I'm allowed to say this, and forgive me if I brought this up on the podcast before or with you in person. But instant replay in baseball should be the George Brett rule. By the George Brett rule, I'm going back to the Pine tar incident where famously George Brett came charging out of the dugout like a mad, man, when the call was. In baseball, the problem with instant replay is that delay and like, Oh, wait, his foot came an inch off the bag. I say, If you're not sprinting out of the dugout, like George Brett going crazy, saying, You got the call wrong, you don't get the challenge. There's no waiting around looking at an assistant coach, looking at the monitor and holding up the game because it's a waste of time, but also it goes against the purity of it. If it's not obvious to your naked eye, well, big deal. Move on. If you want to challenge it 'cause you think he was safe, then we're out, go for it, but you have to do it immediately right away.

David Gardner: Well, again, this is our NFL football and college professional football podcast this week. But a digression and a bonus point about baseball and Kimball. Sounds like you took a professional risk to even open your mouth on that subject.

Kimball Crossley: Not really.

David Gardner: Thank you for your courage. Before we go to buy, ale or hold, which is how we're going to close this episode, as we did last time, I think we need to talk a little bit about fantasy football. A lot of people are playing this. I think it's more popular than any other fantasy sport, I would think. What's your overall assessment? Do you play the game? Do you think it can be improved? What are your thoughts about fantasy football?

Kimball Crossley: Well, I play it a little bit. I think we got to know each other 30 some years ago, before, 40 years ago, geez, 40 years ago. When I was not a baseball scout and I was allowed to play fantasy baseball, there is nothing like fantasy baseball. Fantasy baseball is so much better than fantasy football for a lot of reasons.

David Gardner: Wow, them's fighting words out there.

Kimball Crossley: No, I get more people play it, and it's easier to play fantasy football, and that's one of the reasons why more people play it. But to me, the purpose of a fantasy sport is there are only so many GMs in the world. There's only 30 GMs in baseball and what 32 in football. The rest of us are like, darn it, I want to be one. We don't get to. Even those of us who work in baseball, we're not GMs, you know? The whole idea is you think you can make these GM type decisions because that's what you're doing, trading, drafting players, and putting them on your fictitious team. That's the whole point of it. Well, in baseball, it really can be incredibly realistic because usually it's what's called the keeper League, where if you get a guy, you have him for a certain amount of time, and you can watch a young player thrive. That's the fun of it. That's what we're all saying. It's like, I knew he would be better than him.

But football tends to not be a keeper league for a lot of reasons. One is, there's not a lot of development. You're either good or you're not. There's so much attrition and injury and guys just fade and go away so much more quickly in football. It's less nuance. That's one of the reasons I just don't like fantasy football. It's very much just random and today and who's healthy. Then you go to the scoring system. Most fantasy football, there's nothing for linemen, and, you know, most of the players on the field, it's about the yardage your guy gets, and then crazier if he gets a touchdown, which is so random. There's guys catch one pass, but it's a touchdown; guys that catch eight passes and get you down the field and don't get a touchdown. It's just annoying. It's just not as fun to me. It doesn't show true talent. I happen to be in a football league with a guy that works for RotoWire. He founded it, and he's like, knows everything going on with every transaction.

David Gardner: RotoWire Ten res history baseball as in a baseball focused media.

Kimball Crossley: Well, it's called RotoWire, but it's fantasy focused.

David Gardner: Got it OK.

Kimball Crossley: It's all sports, as far as I know, at least in the major sports.

David Gardner: Thank you.

Kimball Crossley: This guy, I couldn't name three wide receivers on my jets. But he can name the death chart. Whatever, he's never won the thing. He should be miles ahead of me. I grant you that. But it's so random. It's so much luck. It's fun, but it's limited in what it really is doing for me.

David Gardner: Is there a single tip you could give me based on the game as you know it? Like, let's just say I'm a duffer and I'm trying to do better next week. Or if you don't have something there, we could change one rule in our league. We could make our league better. Is there something for all the fantasy fans out there that you can give us that is constructive that can make us better?

Kimball Crossley: Well, I would say, make it more like fantasy baseball. Fantasy baseball traditionally, you accrue stats. Your players get stats, and you accrue them, and you have you're ordered and how many home runs your team has hit over the course of the season as opposed to their team, whereas fantasy football is usually like that Sunday, you put it against another team in the league, just one other team. It's your points versus his points when you get a win or loss, and that can be so random. Maybe I’m a little bit bitter today because just last night, I had, like, the second-highest point total of anybody in our 12-person league, and I think it’s 16, maybe, in our 16-person league, and I’m like, excited and I should win the game. But then this guy has this great night, Puka Nacua goes off. All of a sudden, he has the second highest point total and passes me, and I would have been in any other team in the league. Except it's one. Now so, yes, that happens all the time in fantasy football. You only have like, 17 weeks to do it. That's a huge, you know, setback.That's not going to even out. Like, we love things to do with all things and statistics and stocks or whatever. We want fairness. We want to feel like Things are going to even out. Fantasy football just doesn't even out.

David Gardner: There is a lot more locked in it. It's like watching a pinball go down a pinball machine and you happen to hit that bumper that bounce you off, and, oh, my gosh, you got the 5X score. Maybe that's part of the fun of watching football is just it's like watching pinball, but there's not as much skill and not as much predictability. Yet, people love their pinball machines. They make lots of noises, lights go off. They get to laugh at their friends, based on some weird trick of physics, where the ball jumped over something, this or that, and they won or lost. I guess that's part of the fun, but I think you're right. It is not the thinking person's game relative certainly to fantasy baseball, not that we're going to be snobby about that this week. We're here to celebrate America's game. These days, admittedly, economically, it is football. It's American football. Kimball any thoughts before we go to By Seller Hold about how college sports have professionalized? I don't mean to open Pandora's box here. You're at the end of our conversation, but I've occasionly been cheeky mentioning NFL professional football and college professional football. I realize you're not covering that, but you're an American, too. What do you think?

Kimball Crossley: Well, it's funny because I think what we found today, and I should mention, I was a sports writer for a long time before becoming a scout, and I like to think I have good opinions on things. I think you've noticed from this podcast listeners, if I have a problem, I have a solution. I'll tell you, one of the things in sports I've never had a solution for is college sports and the paying of players and how to do it. I've thought about it a lot, and I have no idea how to fix it. I mean, I think it's good that the players get some money, but what we have now is crazy, as well documented. I don't know. I don't know how I would fix you know, the problems that we have in college sports.

David Gardner: All right. Well, this has been so much fun. Great to catch up, Kimball. Yes, we have known each other for 40 years. This podcast is a wonderful excuse to get back together at least once a year. Let's go to By seller Hold. You played it last time you were about to play it again. Rapid Fire here. I'm going to be presenting you things that are not stocks, Kimball, they are things from sports. We're going to start with football, then we'll go beyond football. I'm asking you if they were stocks, though. Would you be buying, selling or holding and a sentence or two as to why? You ready?

Kimball Crossley: Yes.

David Gardner: All right, first one up. The NFL should expand to 18 regular season games, buy sell or hold? Sell, no, sell. Too many injuries? These goes too long. Why?

Kimball Crossley: Yes, and I think we might be even seeing that this season. Well, maybe with the injuries, but when we talked about the penalties, there's no rehearsal. It was crazy in my time when there were six exhibition games of 14 regular season. But now, even the exhibition games they have nobody plays in them, that's going to be on your roster.

David Gardner: Yes, it's true.

Kimball Crossley: There's no reps. I think that's part of the sloppiness that we've seen in these first few weeks of the NFL season.

David Gardner: I mean, I want to push back and say more revenue, Kimball, more entertainment, but we got to keep moving. That's go to number two. Next one, a buy, sell, or hold the NFL abolishing Conferences, and seeding the 14 best teams into the playoffs regardless of geography, buy, sell or hold.

Kimball Crossley: As much as I want fairness in a lot of sports, and I think some leagues have gone the opposite way where there's too small a divisions and so you win in division, maybe I should say hold because I would want to compromise that.

David Gardner: Sure.

Kimball Crossley: A four team division is probably too small, but I do think you want regional rivalries. You want to feel like there's something to a conference to a division. I do think you want that, but I don't think you want just, like, line them all up and rank them in the way you discussed.

David Gardner: I guess we do like our traditional rivalries. All right, next one up. I mean, we obliquely reference this, so I think I can guess where you're headed. But here we go. By seller hold the NFL, eliminating the kickoff entirely?

Kimball Crossley: I'm buying that. In fact, when I watch a game and you're rooting for a team, it feels like not much often happens on that. If it does, it doesn't feel like a reliable skill. Like, when I watch the Jets and they can't stop the run, I just think we're never going to be able to stop the run. But if we gave up a long kickoff or scored on a kickoff, I'd be like, we were either lucky or unlucky. It doesn't feel like that was a true skill.

David Gardner: We do have a lot of sports fans still listening. We never really went, who are your teams, but I think we should briefly do that. Kimball, please, in the major sports, who are your teams include college?

Kimball Crossley: Well, you and I went to UNC, and we're Tar Heel fans, but it's funny because I don't really even consider myself a Tar Heel football fan, and part of that is because I'm a Jets fan, and Bill Belichick is evil. It's a win win. If North Carolina football does well, I'm like, Oh, our football team is actually not bad. But if they do poorly and Belichick suffers, I'm like, Oh, good.

David Gardner: About the four major sports men's sports proffesionals.

Kimball Crossley: Well, that's where it's been tarnished. I grew up a long suffering Mets fan as well. But when you work in baseball, you lose that. I root for my Padres because I work for us. In basketball, I guess it's still the Knicks, especially coming off a championship, I can't say I was like, I've been there with them since 73. I love the Knicks. There are lots of times I could name five Knicks. I dropped that, and hockey was the Rangers, but I had to drop hockey.

David Gardner: Yes, life's short. Life's too busy. You've got a lot of sports already going on in your life. Let's do another football one. Kimball, buy, seller or hold the college football 32 team national championship playoff.

Kimball Crossley: Ridiculous. [LAUGHTER].

David Gardner: Sound like all.

Kimball Crossley: No, it's ridiculous. I thought it was ridiculous way back when, when Pols decided it. But I thought this might take a little bit of time, but I think there should be a way to decide a champion that's not up to, like, pools and rankings. I think it should be like, Look, we say there's seven major conferences or six or whatever. If you win your conference and you decide whether that means a conference, bowl game or not championship game, you're in. Then if you're not, you're not. Then maybe we have, like, two at large or something like that. Just so it's like uniform. It's not like what we always have like, they deserve it. Look at this. I hate all those arguments. I hate when it comes down to.

David Gardner: It seems like there's really only, like, truly three or four truly great college football teams, and so if you expand to eight, 16, 32, we're still going to end up with the same few teams, aren't we In the finals?

Kimball Crossley: Well, maybe. I do believe and that's where I think, you know, you might not be the best team, but if you're the most worthy, if someone goes undefeated, and they're not playing in a Pid conference, who's to say, even if the ETest says they're no good that they're not the best. I think that's the beauty about Pro sports is usually, well, I can't think of an example where it's not. Like, Look, we might doubt you, but hey, you won more games than them in our schedule. You get to get a chance for the prize, and maybe you won't get it, but you deserve a chance. We don't college football is weird like that. I've never been a huge college football fan, partly because of that.

David Gardner: All right, that ends our football portion buy, seller, or hold. We'll just do a few more beyond football because we're having fun. Kimball Crossley, buy, seller or hold, Major League baseball reducing its regular season from 162 games to 154 games, which sounds like that's on the table. I assume you can talk about this, but if you can't plead the fifth.

Kimball Crossley: Sell, I don't like it. I will say, I think there's already too many teams in the playoffs. Baseball was really used to find the most worthy champion after 162 games, and so I don't want fewer regular season and more playoffs. No.

David Gardner: Buy, seller or hold the NBA eliminating the draft lottery and just let the worst team pick first.

Kimball Crossley: No, I think that appears to be a good rule to have. The rules that we've come up with in sports that eliminate just losing on purpose. I don't mind draft lottery.

David Gardner: All right, this one, even edgier than maybe any of my others. Kimball, let's go to the world of professional tennis. I know you're a tennis player. I've seen you out there on the courts. It's been some time. I assume you still play?

Kimball Crossley: Yes, once a week, maybe.

David Gardner: All right. Buy, sell or hold professional tennis eliminating the second serve?

Kimball Crossley: No.

David Gardner: Come on.

Kimball Crossley: No, there's nothing wrong with the second serve. What you're saying, and I have actually heard this is servers are so dominant.

David Gardner: Yeah, the dominant big servers. Let's reward consistency and improve more rallies.

Kimball Crossley: No, because what would happen then, Dave, is it would filter down to the amateur level. If you saw my second serve and how safe it is, and if I only had one serve, that would be my first serve, and that's pathetic.

David Gardner: Last one for you buy, sell or hold every American high school student being required to play at least one season of a team sport. Buy, sell or hold?

Kimball Crossley: I'll say buy because we did meet in prep school, and that was the prep school rule. I wish my daughters were forced to play sports, too more than they were because I didn't push them into sports consciously, and maybe they weren't exposed to it enough, and I think it's a chance to at least be exposed to it.

David Gardner: On a slightly serious note to end and otherwise, extremely entertaining conversation about sports, there is something to be said for the kids who just want to play a sport and not have to be going for a college scholarship. I have read some pushback in the media in recent months about people who are saying, I can't dedicate my adult life to my sons or daughter's travel schedule. That son or daughter actually wants to play a second sport, but they're being forced to specialize. Maybe the transfer in college that we're now paid. There's name image and likeness and also the transfer portals, and maybe it's professionalizing high school in a way that's not comfortable. But one thing seems clear, and it's increasingly unusual for someone who just wants to be on a team and play a sport to feel like they can keep doing it past, I don't know, the age of seven. That was a little bit of my thinking about whether every American high school student should be required. I'm not a big requirements person, but I was curious what you thought.

Kimball Crossley: You can make it very low level. I think that's what you're saying is. You're not saying that they go out for the varsity of a high school sport that's very competitive.

David Gardner: Correct.

Kimball Crossley: They could play intramural pickleball. At least do something to be part of a team, get a little favor. Again, hopefully I'm not coaching. Someone's coaching that's very patient and not worried about wins and losses and just, Hey, we play games to have fun, so let's do that.

David Gardner: I don't ever want us to forget that. You and I did both play varsity high school football, but I was captain of the thirds basketball team at our school. Not the JF. No, the team blow that. I enjoyed the experience. Kimball, I want to just thank you. I love that we can come together after all these years and two old friends who, went to the same high school still finding new ways to question the games that we've loved all our lives. I think that's one of the pleasures of being a rule breaker, recognizing that even the best things can be made better, and the rules that we've inherited, are always worth questioning. Whether you're a football fan or not, I hope, dear listener, we've given you a few fresh ways to think about the games you play, the rules you follow, especially if you're an American football fan. Kimball Crossley, thank you for helping us make the world a little smarter, happier, and richer this week. Fool on, my friend.

Kimball Crossley: My pleasure.

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