ING (ING) Q3 2026 Earnings Call Transcript

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DATE

Thursday, Oct. 29, 2026

CALL PARTICIPANTS

• Chief Executive Officer - Steven J. van Rijswijk
• Chief Financial Officer - Ida Lerner
• Chief Risk Officer - Andrea Cesaroni

TAKEAWAYS

• Return on Tangible Equity -- 16% in the third quarter, representing a 2 percentage point increase in the four-quarter rolling average compared to the previous year.
• Mobile Primary Customers -- 259,000 added during the quarter, bringing the growth over the past 12 months to more than 1.1 million customers.
• Total Customer Base -- more than 41 million individuals, following the addition of 900,000 total customers over the past 12 months.
• Net Core Lending -- EUR 11 billion growth, driven by an EUR 8.5 billion increase in retail banking and EUR 2.5 billion in wholesale banking.
• Net Core Deposits -- EUR 12.1 billion increase, supported by EUR 9.4 billion in wholesale banking inflows and EUR 2.7 billion in retail banking.
• Fee Income -- 9% year-over-year increase, reflecting a 14% rise in average fees per private individual customer and improved cross-selling of investment products.
• Total Income Guidance -- projected to exceed the original 2027 target by at least EUR 1 billion due to strong commercial momentum.
• Commercial NII -- EUR 16.8 billion to EUR 17 billion expected for the full year 2026, supported by a projected liability margin of around 110 basis points.
• Operating Expenses -- expected to land approximately EUR 300 million below the 2027 target, resulting in positive operating jaws of more than 4 percentage points.
• Headcount -- 1.5% year-over-year reduction, achieved through productivity gains within the global hubs network.
• Risk Costs -- EUR 403 million in the third quarter, which included an EUR 111 million impact from an IFRS model update.
• Capital Distribution -- EUR 1.9 billion announced for shareholders, consisting of a EUR 1.65 billion share buyback and an EUR 250 million cash payment.
• CET1 Ratio -- 13.3% at quarter end, representing a 30 basis point improvement after accounting for capital generation and distributions.
• Significant Risk Transfer Relief -- 16 basis points of CET1 ratio benefit year-to-date, following EUR 3 billion of risk-weighted asset relief in the third quarter.
• Wholesale Banking Restructuring -- EUR 175 million provision expected in the fourth quarter to support 400 redundancies, aimed at generating EUR 75 million in annual savings starting in 2028.
• Lending Margin -- 123 basis points, reflecting a shift toward lower risk density loans with attractive returns.
• Assets Under Management -- EUR 20 billion year-over-year net inflow, driven by the expansion of the global investment platform.
• Sustainable Volume Mobilized -- 19% increase year-to-date, reflecting continued support for client sustainable transitions.
• Retail Other Countries Expenses -- EUR 98 million increase, reflecting investments in new segments such as business banking and private banking.

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RISKS

• Lerner stated, "The heightened interest rate volatility during the third quarter had a negative effect on hedging effectiveness," which impacted all other income for the period.
• Van Rijswijk noted that the restructuring of the wholesale bank will result in "around 400 redundancies globally," leading to a significant one-time provision in the fourth quarter.

SUMMARY

ING Groep N.V. (NYSE:ING) reported growth in its primary customer base and increased capital efficiency through its Significant Risk Transfer program. Management indicated that the company is performing ahead of its 2027 financial targets, specifically regarding fee income and return on tangible equity. The company is restructuring its wholesale banking division into a new corporate and institutional banking unit to simplify operations and reallocate capital toward higher-return retail segments.

• The company is renaming its Wholesale Banking unit to Corporate and Institutional Banking as part of a strategy to streamline client interactions and improve capital velocity.
• CEO van Rijswijk stated, "The improvement in profitability is predominantly structural supported by consistent strategy execution with further runway ahead."
• CFO Lerner noted that the liability margin benefited from "disciplined pricing while the longer maturities of our replicating portfolio continues to roll over."
• The global investment platform is currently operational in the Netherlands, Belgium, Italy, and Romania, enabling faster product development through a scalable model.
• Management expects to reach its EUR 5 billion fee income target in 2026, which is one year ahead of the original strategic plan.

INDUSTRY GLOSSARY

• CIB: Corporate and Institutional Banking, the new name for ING's Wholesale Banking segment focused on large corporate and financial institution clients.
• SRT: Significant Risk Transfer, a capital management strategy where a bank transfers the credit risk of a portion of its loan portfolio to third-party investors to reduce its risk-weighted assets.
• CET1 Ratio: Common Equity Tier 1 ratio, a key measure of a bank's capital strength that compares its core equity capital against its total risk-weighted assets.
• ROTE: Return on Tangible Equity, a financial ratio that measures the profit a company generates with the money shareholders have invested, excluding intangible assets like goodwill.
• NII: Net Interest Income, the difference between the interest income earned by a bank on its lending activities and the interest it pays to depositors and other creditors.
• Operating Jaws: A financial metric measuring the extent to which a company's income growth exceeds its expense growth.

Full Conference Call Transcript

Operator: Good morning. This is Laura. Welcoming you to ING's 3Q 2026 Conference Call. Before handing this conference call over to Steven J. van Rijswijk, Chief Executive Officer of ING Group, Let me first say that today's comments may include forward-looking statements such as statements regarding future developments in our business, expectations for our future financial performance and any statement not involving a historical fact. Actual results may differ materially from those projected in any forward-looking statements.

A discussion of factors that may cause actual results to differ from those in any forward-looking statement is contained in our public filings, including our most reason annual report on Form filed with the United States Securities and Exchange Commission and our earnings press release as posted on our website today. Furthermore, nothing in today's comments constitutes an offer to sell or a solicitation of Enova-Dubai, any securities. Good morning, Steven, over to you.

Steven van Rijswijk: Good morning, and good morning to you all. Welcome to our results call for the third quarter of 2026. I hope that you're doing well. As usual, I'm joined by our CFO, Ida Lerner; and our CRO, Andrea Cesaroni, since launching our growing a different strategy in 2024, we have made significant progress delivering on our strategic priorities and performing well ahead of our financial targets. And today, I will discuss how the disciplined execution of our strategy is driving profitable growth, supported by structural drivers. After that, Ida will walk you through the quarterly financials. And at the end of the call, we will be happy to take your questions.

And with that, -- we now move to Slide #2. And on Slide #2, you see that continue to see strong customer activity across the franchise alongside clear momentum and profitability. Importantly, these developments go hand-in-hand. We are growing our customer base, becoming the primary bank for more customers, and we're deepening those relationships through more products and higher volumes. And increasingly, we do this through a scalable operating model, which drives income growth and diversification. It drives positive operating jaws and it drives higher profitability and that is the engine to our strategy, enabling us to grow, generate capital and deliver attractive shareholder returns.

Now in the third quarter, we added 259,000 mobile primary customers taking our growth over the past 12 months to more than EUR 1.1 million ahead of our Capital Markets Day target that we set in 2024. Growing primary relationships is particularly valuable as it drives deeper engagement, greater cross-selling, higher balances and ultimately, more income per customer. And this momentum is also reflected in strong loan growth of 6% annualized, supported by continued demand across our markets and customer deposits also grew at an annualized rate of 6% and underlying the strength of our customer franchise and deposit gathering capabilities.

Fee income increased 9% year-on-year, supported by customer growth and higher engagement both retail and wholesale banking and sustainable volume mobilized that increased with 19% year-to-date, 1-9, as we continue to support clients in their sustainable transitions and overall strong customer activity translated into income growth of 6.6% over the last 12 months, while cost growth remained contained at around 2%. Positive operating jaws of more than 4 percentage points demonstrate the increasing scalability of our business. And as a result, we delivered a 16% return on tangible equity in the third quarter with our 4 quarter rolling ROTE improving by 2 percentage points year-on-year.

Now let's now look more closely at what is driving the increase in our return on tangible equity on Page 3. And on that page, you see that we break down the roughly 2 percentage points year-on-year increase in ROTE and more than 80% of that improvement is supported by a number of strategic drivers. And when we launched our growing a different strategy, we identified 3 key levers to structurally improve profitability, and we've made strong progress on each with further runway ahead. First of all, we have grown our fee business and diversified our income, and we will continue adding capabilities to further deepen our customer relationships.

Secondly, we have strengthened our operating leverage and improved the operating jaws with further upside as we increasingly support commercial growth with capable solutions; and thirdly, we have reallocated capital to improve our overall return profile. And we will continue to shift capital from Wholesale Banking towards Retail Banking while unlocking additional risk-weighted assets through ongoing capital discipline. Now alongside these strategic levers margins remain supportive to our overall profitability, and we continue to optimize pricing across our customer relationships while benefiting from the tailwinds through our replicating portfolio. Our third quarter performance underscores a clear message. The improvement in profitability is predominantly structural supported by consistent strategy execution with further runway ahead.

And in the next 3 slides, I will further zoom in on each of these 3 strategic levers, starting with fee income on Slide 4 and if you look at Slide 4, and there we gave the example of retail banking. There, you see that how our retail banking growth strategy is translating into more customers into deeper relationships and ultimately, higher fee income per customer. And we continue to grow our customer base, adding 900,000 customers over the past 12 months, reaching more than EUR 41 million in total. But more importantly, mobile primary customers even grew faster by more than EUR 1.1 million.

And as more customers choose ING as their primary bank, engagement deepens and product adoption increases, as reflected in the growing share of customers with 3 or more products. And that's important because primary customers are significantly more valuable than I've said it before. They are 7x more loyal at 4x more digital interactions and are 2x more profitable. We also see the deeper -- these deeper relationships translating into a higher share of wallet. Average funds and trusted per customer that's on the right-hand side of the page have increased, driven by both higher deposits and higher assets under management as more customers choose RNG for their investments.

Higher engagement and product adoption also drive fee income expansion with average fees per private individual customer up 14%. So in short, we have a strong business model. We're growing our customer base, converting more of these customers into primary relationships and deepening those relationships subsequently. And this increases our relevance to our customers, drives higher value per customers entrance and creates an incredible foundation for future growth. Now let me take you to Slide 5 to discuss the second lever that we discussed on Page 2. And on Slide 5, we demonstrate how we increasingly are enabling scalable growth.

Now ING has a strong track record of digitalization with the vast majority of our key customer journey is now fully straight through and requiring no human intervention. And that is critical not only to delivering a superior customer experience, but also to achieving true cost efficiency. And alongside our high level of digitalization, we've built strong foundational capabilities that allow us to scale more efficiently. Our global hubs network brings together a substantial part of our operations workforce and tech employees in a fully integrated and scalable organization that drives productivity and strengthens operational resilience.

And these key capabilities in turn have allowed us to absorb significant commercial growth and to invest further in further expanding our business without requiring additional resources. So if you look year-on-year, we have reduced our head count by 1.5%, and we are significantly front drilling our productivity targets that we had set for 2027 and we see more opportunities ahead. In parallel with making the existing bank more digital and efficient, we are also developing new propositions that enhance customer value and create opportunities for future growth. And increasingly, we're building those propositions globally, enabling us to scale efficiently across markets.

And in depth, our global investment platform, for example, is a good example already live in the Netherlands, in Belgium, Italy and Romania, and it brings together ING's investment capabilities on a single platform. And that enables faster product development and more consistent customer experience across markets and greater responsiveness to changing customer needs. And together, these capabilities allow us then to capture increasing benefits of scale, supporting sustainable and profitable growth. Now let's go to Slide 6. That was the third lever I was talking about.

And on Slide 6, we see the combined effects of consistently executing all the components of our growing the different strategy, growing our customer base, deepening relationships and diversifying income at scale is then driving that positive operating leverage and higher profitability. And then we deployed the capital generated towards profitable growth and selective M&A and then we'll return structurally excess capital to shareholders. And this increasingly convert profitability into EPS growth you see it on the left-hand side of the page with EPS up 17% year-on-year. Now furthermore, our capital generation is amplified by disciplined RWA management.

On a year-on-year basis, we consumed EUR 10 billion of risk-weighted assets for business growth, but that was, however, more than offset by increased capital efficiency. And that increased capital efficiency includes execution of SRT where in the third quarter we were active across both wholesale and retail banking, realizing EUR 3 billion of relief to our risk-weighted assets. So if you look at it on a year-to-date basis, we have now freed up 16 basis points of our CET1 ratio through our SRT program. And overall, there's a strong demonstration of increased capital generation and disciplined RWA management at the same time.

Let's now discuss Slide 7, where I will show how the how this all result in a highly attractive shareholder returns. So on that waterfall on Slide 7, we now show how disciplined capital management has allowed us to announce a EUR 1.9 billion additional distribution while simultaneously improving our CET1 ratio to 13.3%. Since our previous distribution in the first quarter, we have generated EUR 3.8 billion of net profit, which is equivalent to 1.1 percentage point of CET1 and of that, 50% has been reserved for our regular dividend distribution policy.

And the other 50% was also fully reserved outside of CET1, which over the course of 2 quarters, added up to -- sorry, EUR 1.9 billion that we have announced today for distribution. And we were able to do this, first of all, on the back of the continued resilience of our business model and asset quality and secondly, because of our increased capital efficiency as the incremental capital consumption from business growth was more than offset by improved capital velocity. And as a result, we were able to reserve all profits generated over the past 6 months for distribution, while further strengthening our CET1 ratio by 30 basis points to 13.3%. And our distribution policy remains unchanged.

Any capital that we consider to be structurally in excess of 13% or in other words, capital that is not needed for operational, regulatory or inorganic purposes will be returned to shareholders and we will provide you with the next update on this with our first quarter results of 2027. Now let's move to Slide 9. That's the slide on the outlook and will again talk you through the main components of our outlook for '26 and '27, as I did in the last quarter. This year, we are again on track to add 1 million mobile primary customers.

In fee income, we are performing well ahead of plan, and we expect to already reach the EUR 5 billion mark this year, 1 year ahead of our original plan and on the back of strong momentum, both in commercial and in fee income, total income is expected to exceed our original target for 2027 by at least EUR 1 billion.

And while client activity and volumes were significantly stronger than previously expected, our operating expenses are expected to land around EUR 300 million below our original target for 2027 and that clearly reflects our substantially stronger operating leverage than previously anticipated with a projected cost income ratio and '27 is several percentage points lower than what we had guided during our previous Capital Markets Day. And combined with the progress in capital efficiency, we expect our return on tangible equity to exceed our capital Markets Day Target for '27 by these 2 percentage points to above the 16%.

And it is evident that through the consistent execution of our strategy, we are delivering on a broad range of catalysts will continue to support rising profitability and EPS in the years to come. Then we go to Slide 10. And there, we announced the next strategic step in Wholesale Banking, but let me first take a step back. We have a strong franchise in Wholesale Banking, serving more than 4,000 of the world's largest corporates and financial institutions across 36 countries on the ground.

We play an important role as a gateway to Europe for multinational clients in the Americas and Asia Pacific, while supporting the European economy by financing growth, financing innovation and the transitions that will shape the coming decades. Then when we look at what we have done in recent years and create greater value in Wholesale Banking, we have made good progress against our strategic priorities. We're diversifying income, we're growing deposits. We broadened our distribution capabilities and we increased capital velocity. And that gives us a solid foundation from which to take a next step and further develop our wholesale banking franchise.

And as part of our ambition to be the best European bank, we're taking this next step as really step in Wholesale Banking to simplify and make it easier for our clients to do business with us. We will create a more streamlined structure, which supports closer relationship with clients to serve them with more impact and create better value. And as part of the journey, we're also renaming the units to the wholesale bank into corporate and institutional banking to better reflect our business focus.

And due to these changes, a number of roles will change, and we expect around 400 redundancies globally, and we will work, of course, with the relevant stakeholders to ensure that we do this in the best possible way and help impact the colleagues find their next role inside or outside of ING. A provision of around EUR 175 million is expected to be booked in the fourth quarter of 2026, leading to an annual cost reduction of around EUR 75 million from 2028 onwards. And we're confident that these changes put us in a strong position deliver on our ambitions. And with that, we move to Slide 11.

And today, yes, yes, here we go, we are announcing the date of our next strategy update taking place on the 14th of June next year. Since our previous Capital Markets Day in 2024, we've made significant progress on executing our strategy, delivering on our priorities, and we are ahead of our financial targets. As I said, having raised our outlook for return on tangible equity by an additional 2 percentage points compared to the original target of 27%. And that increased profitability is supported by the structural levers where we see further runway also in the years ahead. So growing our fee business, improving operational leverage and shift in capital allocation.

And during our Capital Markets Day in 2027, we will present the next phase of our strategy, our priorities for future growth and how we will continue to create value for customers, shareholders and other stakeholders. And together with a strategic update or [indiscernible] update, we will also provide an updated longer-term financial plan, including targets for 2030. And guided by our 2 peers step by step, we're building a scalable universal bank with significant further potential to structurally improve profitability, and I'm confident that we see the next phase of our strategy will -- that the next stage of strategy allow us to further build on the strong progress that we have made.

And with that, I will now hand over to Ida and she will walk you through our quarterly results in more detail starting with Slide 30, Ida.

Ida Lerner: Thank you, Stephen. Let me take you through the key drivers of our financial performance in the third quarter. On Slide 13, we can see how the accelerated growth in commercial NII and our strong performance in fee income fueled a 6% year-on-year increase in total income. Commercial NII was supported by continued volume growth on both sides of the balance sheet by disciplined commercial pricing and by the prolonged hedging tailwind in our replicated customer deposits. Fee income increased 9% year-on-year, benefiting from our growing customer base and from increased cross saving. All other income was affected by interest rate volatility, resulting in negative results from hedge ineffectiveness. However, this effect is expected to reverse over time.

Overall, total income rose 6% year-on-year, driven by high customer activity across the bank. Let's now take a closer look at our volume growth. Turning to Slide 14. Here, we show the development of our customer balances as we continue recording strong customer activity across the bank. Net core lending increased by EUR 11 billion. Of this, Retail Banking grew its loan book by EUR 8.5 billion. Demand for mortgages remained solid with good demand in the Netherlands, Germany, Australia, Italy and Spain. Growth in retail banking was further supported by increases in business lending and consumer lending across multiple markets. Wholesale Banking delivered EUR 2.5 billion of net core lending growth reflecting strong client demand.

Net core deposit growth was EUR 12.1 billion, underlying the strength of our customer franchise and deposit gathering capabilities. In Retail Banking, we added EUR 2.7 billion in net core deposits with continued customer inflows that have more than offset seasonal outflows related to holiday spending the conclusion of several promotional campaigns and net flows into investment products. Wholesale Banking contributed EUR 9.4 billion, driven by strong growth in our Payments and Cash Management business across multiple markets. Now on to commercial NII on Slide 15. Commercial NII grew by EUR 161 million quarter-on-quarter and was 13% higher than last year. Lending NII rose by EUR 28 million quarter-on-quarter, driven by higher lending volumes.

The lending margin decreased slightly, mainly as a result of growth in lower risk density loans at attractive returns. Liability NII increased by EUR 135 million, supported by higher deposit volumes as well as a 6 basis points improvement in the liability margin. The higher liability margin reflects disciplined pricing while the longer maturities of our replicating portfolio continues to roll over and recover from historically low interest rates. For the full year, we expect commercial NII to range between EUR 16.8 billion and SEK 17 billion with a liability margin of around 110 basis points.

Turning to Slide 16, our customer base growth, and they use us for more services, which is reflected in the 9% year-on-year growth in fee income. In retail banking, fee income rose 10% year-on-year, supported by a growing customer base and improved cross-selling. We see strong performance across a wide and expanding range of products and services. We maintained our growth in investment products cross-selling our solutions to an additional 100,000 customers during the third quarter. Our success in investment products supports capturing a larger share of customers' overall financial assets as demonstrated by the EUR 20 billion year-on-year net inflow in assets under management.

In Wholesale Banking, fee income grew 9% year-on-year demonstrating the progress on further income diversification with strong support, in particular, from daily banking and trade finance. Quarter-on-quarter, Fee income remained broadly stable as reduced customer trading activity was offset by a growing customer base and by increased cross-selling. For the full year, we expect to generate EUR 5 billion of fee income which is EUR 400 million higher year-on-year and implies we will reach our EUR 5 billion target 1 year ahead of plan. With that, let's move to Slide 17. On this slide, we show the development of all other income. The heightened interest rate volatility during the third quarter had a negative effect on hedging effectiveness.

It's worth remembering, however, that the P&L impact from hedging effectiveness is not economic in nature. It is accounting-driven and reverses over time as was also seen in the second quarter of 2026. Treasury income was lower sequentially, including the negative effect from higher interest rates on non-remunerated volumes under the minimum reserve requirement. Income in financial markets remained at an overall solid level, although slightly down compared to the second quarter due to lower income from trading activities and interest rate products. Overall, we expect all other income for the full year to be between EUR 2.5 billion and EUR 2.7 billion. Next, Slide 18, moving to expenses.

Expenses, excluding regulatory costs and incidental items, were up 3.6% year-on-year, reflecting ongoing investments into building future revenue streams. Of the EUR 103 million increase year-on-year, EUR 98 million was in our retail other countries, where we are expanding into new segments to capture a larger share of the local revenue pools and EUR 36 million was in Wholesale Banking, where we are investing in our transaction banking capabilities to further enhance income diversification as well as other initiatives. These investments in revenue growth were partially offset by lower costs in our largest markets, the Netherlands, Belgium, and Germany, supported by ongoing efficiency gains.

Expenses, excluding regulatory costs and incidental items, were broadly stable quarter-on-quarter, absorbing the 3.5% CLA impact of salary increases in the Netherlands through lower head count and lower marketing expenses. On a year-to-date basis, our cost growth is tracking at 3%, in line with our previously communicated full year outlook. As we continue to find new opportunities to improve customer servicing, and to unlock further efficiencies. We also continue taking decisive actions to execute on these opportunities. This required EUR 63 million of restructuring costs in the third quarter and will result in EUR 40 million of annual cost savings once fully implemented.

And as Stephen already announced, -- for the fourth quarter, we expect additional restructuring costs, including the EUR 175 million as announced today in Wholesale Banking. These restructuring costs will support better long-term cost performance and enable continued positive operating jaws for a prolonged period of time. Now moving on to risk costs. Total risk costs were EUR 403 million in the third quarter included EUR 111 million related to an IFRS model update. Excluding this model update and SRT related charges, Risk costs were well below our through-the-cycle average of 20 basis points, reflecting our prudent risk management and the quality and strength of our loan book. Net additions to Stage 3 provision amounted to EUR 239 million.

This mainly related to collective provisions in consumer lending, reflecting portfolio growth and model refinement. Stage 3 individual risk costs remained modest. Outside the model update and SRT related charges, Stage 1 and Stage 2 risk costs were insignificant this quarter. Overall, we remain confident in the strength and quality of our loan book. And finally, let me take you to Slide 20 to discuss our core equity Tier 1 development. Capital generation was strong in the third quarter, supported by a combination of rising profitability, continued capital optimization measures. Overall, we generated around 80 basis points of core equity Tier 1 in the quarter.

This allowed us to reserve 100% of our net results outside of the core equity Tier 1 supporting today's announcement of a EUR 1.9 billion additional distribution, while also further strengthening our core equity Tier 1 to 13.3%. Risk-weighted assets decreased by EUR 4.3 billion in the quarter, driven by increased capital efficiency. This included EUR 3 billion of relief from SRT transactions in wholesale banking as well as in retail banking. The EUR 1.9 billion distribution announced today consists of a EUR 1.65 billion share buyback commencing today and an amount of EUR 250 million that we paid out in cash in January.

Both distributions will be fully funded from net reserves net results reserved outside of core equity Tier 1 and therefore, will not affect our core equity Tier 1 ratio. And with that, let me hand it back to Steven to wrap up today's presentation.

Steven van Rijswijk: Thank you, Ida. Before we move to Q&A, let me recap the key takeaways from today's presentation. The consistent execution of our growing the different strategy is driving structurally increasing profitability with further runway ahead. Our customers increasingly choose ING as our primary bank, which supports higher fee income per customer and creates an incredible foundation for future growth. And our commercial growth and strengthening profitability are supported by the increased scalability of our operations, enabling higher customer activity without requiring additional resources. Disciplined capital management has allowed us to announce a EUR 1.9 billion additional distribution while simultaneously improving our CET1 ratio to 13.3%.

So overall, we are delivering on our strategic priorities, and we are well ahead of our financial targets. And I would like to invite you to our Capital Markets Day in 2027, where we will represent the next phase of our strategy and provide a longer-term plan longer-term financial plan. And with that, I would like to open the floor for Q&A. Operator, over to you.

Operator: [Operator Instructions] We will now take our first question from Ben la Petraque of Kepler Cheuvreux.

Benoit Petrarque: So yes, the first 1 is actually on the CMD type of preview Yes, I think you've demonstrated that you are able to grow much faster than peers. Your growth delivery has been very strong. Thinking about this new phase of the strategy, how do you see cost growth going into the 2030 time horizon. So I think you are talking a lot about scalable growth. Obviously, technology is important. And also you've been put into restructuring. So how do you see the cost going forward? And are you going to be able to maintain strict cost control in the new plan? That's question number one.

And number 2 is on liability margins, so around 110 bps for the full year that implies 115 bps for the fourth quarter, so an over strong sequential improvement quarter-on-quarter. I know you cannot guide on pass-through rates in the competition, but -- how do you see the competitive pressure on deposit rates? Are you confident that this is under control at this point of time in your main markets? Just wanted to get your view on the competitive pressure on that side.

Steven van Rijswijk: All right. Benoit. I will answer the question on liability margin, but let me start with the 2030 targets that we, of course, will not present today, but we will present those during Capital Markets Day in mid-June 2027. But that presentation will continue to be on how do we grow and diversify -- how do we do that in a scalable way and how do we further and continue to move our capital. So those elements, those structural drivers that I also talked about today, those structural drivers will also come back in the presentation. Clearly, that comes with cost control.

But if you look, for example, at the first 9 months and you look at the total cost of the Netherlands, Belgium, and Germany are big 3 franchises that stayed flat or even went down a little bit in aggregate. And then you basically see the cost growth in other retail markets. And that is because we are putting new businesses in place there, business banking, private banking more as the investment platform, deeper payment capabilities, insurance distribution capabilities. So we use the money of the strong bigger franchises and the cash flow that they throw off to grow there. So that's one. Two, I also talked in a presentation that we are focusing much more on scalable proposition.

So we have been able to develop already operational leverage through our foundations, the digitalizations and the hubs, but we also are increasingly and the investment platform is a good example of that, able to launch a product, produce only ones and then consume by all. And that's increasingly something that we are discovering. And also that will be a topic for the capital markets at '27.

Ida Lerner: Yes. And thank you. On the liability margin, I think it's important to look at the overall development that we've seen in the liability margin. As you said, for the first 9 months, we reached 108 basis points and we're now also saying that we expect to land at around 110 basis points for the full year. Looking ahead, we will continue to benefit from the structure of our replication portfolio with both the short and the long-term part being repriced upwards, but you also need to keep in mind that you can see the volatility in the curve of the interest rate. But there, we are confident that we.that we also are continuing to deliver.

Looking at the competitiveness in the market, we see that we continue to gain a good portion of deposit growth also in a seasonally slow quarter, which the third quarter is in the retail banking side. Competition continues to be strong. But if you look at the German market, for instance, deposits in growth. Competitive and interesting offering that also goes beyond price points and shows the attractiveness of ING overall. Competition remains strong and we expect it to continue to be strong, but we're also confident in our ability to continue generating profitable deposits in the time to come.

Operator: We'll now take our. Next question from Namita Samtani of Barclays.

Namita Samtani: My first question, the wholesale banking deposit inflow this quarter is extremely encouraging. I just wondered if it's part of some of the initiatives you have been taking that are starting to work? Or is this just a one-off in nature? I also see them growing in the rest of the world. So I was just wondering why there. And then my second question, the lending margin trickled down by 1 basis point this quarter. I was just wondering if 120 basis points is what we should expect going forward?

Steven van Rijswijk: All right. I'll give the lending margin question to Ida, and I'll answer on deposits. Yes, it is part of a broader strategy in Wholesale Banking, where we've also said that we want to increase our TS and financial markets capabilities. That also includes deposit covering also banking, which was not so much a focus area in the past, but increasingly has become 1 and this is an example of that you, by the way, also saw the previous quarter. So not every quarter is the same. And of course, some quarters seasonally will get more inflow in other quarters, but is an example of an increased focus by our wholesale bank colleagues on generating deposits.

Ida Lerner: And you're right, the lending margin moved to 123 basis points in quarter and this mainly reflects mix shifts from lower risk density loans at attractive returns. We continue to steer for profitable growth on the basis of new production return on equity, and we also continue to see strong growth in mortgages compared with Wholesale Banking, lending resulting in stonger growth in high return on equity assets but with lower margin and lower risk density as well. Within Wholesale Banking we also booked more lending to investment-grade clients, which typically comes with a lower margin.But for the remainder of the year, we expect lending margin to remain broadly stable at 123 basis points.

Operator: And we will now take our next question from Giulia Miotto of Morgan Stanley.

Giulia Miotto: So my first question is on restructuring costs. The EUR 175 million Q4 is quite a surprise. And looking forward, so we got used to having EUR 200 million roughly of restructuring costs per year over the past few years. This year will be higher, will be around EUR 300 million. How should we think about the restructuring costs going forward? Do you see still many actions to take? Or are you approaching basically, is a front loading of opportunities that you see next year. And so next year, probably it should be lower. And then my second question is on risk-weighted assets and then SRT benefits. Clearly, you had some assertive in Q3.

Could you please update us on how you're thinking about SRT's efficiencies over the next few years. Could you increase those given that you're starting from a low starting point? Or actually, given what we have seen with our banks like Nordea Banks in terms of RWA low density in the corporate, probably you don't have as much space for further capital optimization.

Steven van Rijswijk: Thank you very much, Julia. I take the question on restructuring costs and Ida will talk about RWA and SRT. First of all, when you talk about the wholesale bank that will that change will be executed in coming quarters. It already comes with efficiency gains in '27, although yet limited. It does supports a better cost trajectory in 2028 and beyond, supporting a further increase of the wholesale banking ROE in the years to come. So it's part of a series of actions that we have been taking, but it will be effectuated as of the first of March. And therefore, it greatly trickles through in our results in '27, but only Fuller in 2029.

If you look at the total outlook for '27, we keep that as it currently is. And we always will look for further opportunities to further improve performance as we are doing in retail or in ops or in technology or in different business lines, and the same we will do in Wholesale Banking. If you look at the restructuring provisions for 2025, for example, they were at around EUR 300 million, and they expect to generate EUR 170 million in -- excluding wholesale banking. For now, we've taken EUR 130 million in provisions year-to-date that would lead to annualized savings of about EUR 100 million and we will continue to look for opportunities. So businesses are changing.

We become sometimes more efficient, we become more scalable. We use our hubs better. We become more digital. And so there will be more instances as we've seen over the past years to improve our performance. For now, we will keep the outlook as it is. But of course, every quarter is something to report on where we can improve the efficiency and effectiveness of our operations, we will do so.

Ida Lerner: And on SRTs, this quarter, we closed 2 transactions, a project finance SRT in wholesale banking but also, which I'm proud to say that we successfully executed on our first SRT in the retail banking in the Dutch business banking exposure. The transactions that we did this quarter contributed 12 basis points to the core equity Tier 1, bringing the capital relief for 2026 to 16 basis points. But if you also add what we did in 2025, we have now a total relief of 28 basis points. If you compare that to some of our peers, we're still significantly lower than that.

And I would also say that, that's also why we continue to see opportunities to do more SRTs, -- and I would then also link that back to our guidance saying that we are targeting or aiming to do approximately between 15 to 20 basis points of core equity Tier 1 benefits for 2026. Going forward, we continue to focus on where it would make sense from a profitability perspective and capital velocity perspective and optimizing our capital position. And we will come back with -- in line with our full year numbers with the outlook for 2027.

Operator: We'll now take our next question from Benjamin Goy of Deutsche Bank.

Benjamin Goy: One on Nouman and the other on fee income. First on loan and you mentioned there's still strong growth in mortgages. Just wondering how you expect to change or whether it's not to change with higher rates and whether you are normalized towards more towards the 5% volume growth you are targeting as a result? And then secondly, thank you for Slide 4 -- just interested in terms of the AUM, about EUR 8,000 per customer. Do you roughly know how much of your primary customers still have outside and you see as a wallet share gain opportunity?

Steven van Rijswijk: Yes. Thank you. On the loan demand, look, we have had a 6% annualized growth in lending and so to date and a 6% annualized growth in deposits. So that's good. It's also a bit higher than we've seen in the longer term trajectory where it was more 4% to 5% -- it's a bit early to say clearly, higher interest rates and more uncertainty typically has a dampening effect on loan growth. We haven't seen that yet. So we still see, especially on the mortgage side, a significant increase in many markets.

But we also -- we do also see the first signs, and we would expect the signs coming in of new house mortgages or mortgages for new houses to decline a little bit. So that could well be the case, but it's a bit too early to call. With regards to fee income, we currently have 5.4 million customers that use our capabilities to invest -- that is about 14% of our total. A number of them are primary or [indiscernible] we don't disclose that figure per sale.

But clearly, if we can do more with our customers and make them more primary, this, of course, also helps and that gives that flying wheel that I talked about in the presentation. This quarter, we had an additional [indiscernible] people in addition, who trade with us. So every quarter, we see anywhere between 100,000 and 125,000 and 150,000 people more that use our trading capabilities or app capabilities and that is good. But you also see from the number of investors we have compared to our total number of customers that we still have an enormous runway to go, and that's what we are addressing.

Operator: We'll now take our next question from Shrey Srivastava of Citi.

Shrey Srivastava: Two for me, please. The first is on your mobile primary disclosure and the customers with 3-plus products. So your online numbers, you have about 40% of customers who are mobile primary. Therefore, have about 2x the products. And you now have provided the disclosure that about 20% have 3 plus. My question is on the capacity to expand this going forward. It would be really helpful if you could provide an idea of where you are on this versus, say, in common peers across your core markets.

And b, when you say that mobile primary customers must have a transaction account with yourselves, how many of these accounts do your customers have on average with other players, too, just to make sure that these guys are getting a salary period? My second question is on the restructuring cost again. So EUR 175 million cost to EUR 75 million run rate cost saves. It seems like a bit of a lower payoff versus some of the other types of restructuring costs we've seen from other banks. So could you please just expand on what exactly which areas you're exactly cutting and why the payoff is lower versus the cost.

Steven van Rijswijk: All right. So on the mobile primary customer, we call a client a mobile primary customers when they have a current account with us, whereby a certain amount of the salary sits with us. So it could be that they also may use a few other banks. But given -- and then on top of it, they need to do one other product with us. So it means that we are one of their main banks. It could be depending on the market, they also have a few other main banks in some markets that's cultural clients use more banks for their daily payments and savings.

And in other countries, people typically use only one, but you can safely assume that it means that we are one of the main banks for these customers. And like you have seen, because you said it's a further runway. I mean, over the past years, we have said that we want to grow those mobile primary customer with EUR 1 million per annum. And every year, we're delivering on that promise. And since we have now 40% of our customers, that is a primary customer, it also means that 60% are not. So that means that there is quite a bit of runway there as well.

On the restructuring cost, yes, EUR 175 million that is -- that was the restructuring the savings that come in are there as of 2028, at least in full [indiscernible], they trickle in greatly over 2027. But expected provision is a logical outcome of where we're active and the type of roles that we are changing. And therefore, we cannot simply compare it with operations or other banks that are different in scope. So this is a reflection of the type of people that this effect in the bank.

Shrey Srivastava: Just a quick follow-up on your first one. If you were to look by country, where would you see larger scope to expand your mobile primary customer base and for the customer.

Steven van Rijswijk: Yes. Well, actually, it's the case in most countries because you would say as a total share of primary customers, the Netherlands has the highest. So there where we were more incumbent in nature, we already have more primary customers.

And so thereby, in the countries which we would call other retail, where we are not an incumbent bank, but that also includes Germany, by the way, there is more rooms because there are -- we came in as a challenger bank or as a neo bank as these days, people would say, -- so there is naturally more upside, but we also see that in the countries where we have been a long time, so both Nethers and Belgium, we also to continue to grow our primary customers. So that's good.

There is upside in all, but the most upside sits in the countries where we're now gradually developing more services where we did not have these services in the past, so there's also more opportunity for us to make them our primary mobile customer.

Operator: We'll now take our next question from Delphine Lee of JPMorgan.

Delphine Lee: So my first 1 is -- sorry, just to go back to commercial and I. Just wondering kind of given liability margin is progressing quite well, and you've revised the guidance of 110 basis points for the full year. I'm just wondering, and the curve is also a little bit sort of higher compared to June. I'm just wondering why your guidance for commercial NII remains the same.

Anything we should read on deposit costs and also, if you look at 27 and 28 from your Slide 28, I mean the uplift that we are going to get from the replicating income are quite significant, especially for '27 -- just trying to think about sort of what is your expectation on deposit costs? And how much pass-through should we have on the tailwind. And then my second question is on capital.

So going back a little bit to sort of the debate around this density and -- is there anything in terms of looking at -- thinking about your plan and the different movements in your capital -- is there anything that you would highlight as in terms of equity changes, model updates or reviews from DCB that we should have in mind as well in that context. I mean you're doing well in the SRP -- just kind of wondering if there is anything that we need to watch out for.

Steven van Rijswijk: All right, Delphine. Thank you. I'll give the first question on commercial NII to Ida. And then the second question on capital to Andrea.

Ida Lerner: Yes, thank you for the question. The NII range is still valid. But however, on the basis of what we know today, we are more looking at the upper end of that range of EUR 16.8 billion to EUR 17 billion for 2026. Benefits from continued growth in customer balances and liability margin will, of course, also further support upside potential, and that's also linked to the comment you made on the slide in the appendix. But there, you also need to be mindful that we have seen quite a significant volatility in the interest rate outlook over the past months and quarters.

And just comparing the outlook today compared to what we saw end of September, you already dare see that it's coming down quite a bit from the heightened levels in September. We are not commenting on our expectation of pass-through, but what we also mentioned initially is that it continues to be a strong competition in the market and in our key markets. And we also expect to continue to see that competition from different areas, but also from different competitors.

But we still believe that we have a very good offering, and we'll continue to also price ourselves in a good and long-term perspective, which will support profitability but also means that the liability -- the liability margin will continue to grow, but also maintain the NII overall outlook.

Unknown Analyst: Okay. I'll take the second one. So based on what we currently see, we do not expect any material adverse capital or risk-weighted asset impact. We have already been through an extensive multiyear review of our regulatory models with the objective of ensuring that our target model landscape fully meets the relevant regulatory expectation.

Go through a bit more detail on beyond the simplification and the cost-cutting aspect of it, what's the -- if there's any changes to the product mix, geographies, focus on specific areas of the business I mean, is there any hint in the name change we're looking more towards it more bigger financial markets within a world where SIU or Capital Markets Union will take more space. Yes, I'm sure it will be discussed lengthy in the CMD, but can you give us already a bit of the big lines on how you see this business?

And you gave us the cost, but in terms of -- if you combine the cost savings and the capital buy started for the last few years already, what's the kind of ROA uptick we should be looking at for this division? The second question is on costs and maybe same actually spirits my first question on the next few years and the outlook. Should we expect as well some ramp-up on costs in terms of investments in AI, tech within the next plan? Because I suspect AI will be taking the lion's share of your communication as well in the next CMD.

Steven van Rijswijk: Thank you very much, [ Cederic ]. I think on the Wholesale Bank, maybe a few things to say. First of all, there is an increased focus on value over volume. And you have seen that because, for example, we have also been changing the capital use in Wholesale Banking consistently over the past couple of years, and we continue to do so. Two, we are focused on diversifying the product mix, also given our ZIP code and where we came from, the lion's share of our revenues has been in lending, and we have been investing to also diversify and grow our transaction services and our financial markets business.

And the deposit example of today is an example of that. But consistently, you have seen our fees also in the Wholesale Bank increasing. So we're diversifying our business. Three, we -- with the announcement of today, we're focusing more on client and location over segment. So therefore, we put our relationship managers more incharge of holistically dealing with a client, which means increasingly becoming even more client focused than specific product focused. And I think those will, amongst others, be themes that we will also be talking about during the Capital Markets Day 2027.

I previously said, look, we -- and we have said during the previous Capital Markets Day that the target for 2027 was 12% -- that is what we have said then. And in '27 in the Capital Markets Day, we will talk about ambition going forward. And I've previously also said during one of the conferences that I thought that where we currently are and even with the 12% target, that is not enough, and we will continue on improving the performance. On the cost outlook, we have seen improving cost/income ratio, we are growing the bank, but we're doing that in a scalable way.

I've given the example to Benoit earlier in this call about the ability to grow whereby we were able to keep in the first 9 months, the cost of Netherlands, Belgium, Germany flat in aggregate and then moving that with investments to the other retail countries who require more capabilities to become broad-based universal banking franchises. And the same we do, of course, with investments in TS, transaction services and Financial Markets and Wholesale Banking to change the dial from lending to other areas as well. And that will continue. Digitalization, AI, Gen AI is, of course, part of that. We are a very digital bank.

By the way, we have been using AI for many years, for over a decade, and that has been effectuated in call centers and in straight-through processing. The lion's share of our processes is straight through without human intervention. Gen AI also plays a role in that. not only on the cost side, also on the coding side. So there are 3 areas that we are focusing on. First of all, how can we create a better customer experience because if you create a better customer experience, you can also have more interaction and you sell more. So to give an example, we recently, as I believe, the first bank in Europe, started with Agentic mortgages in the Netherlands.

And as a result of that, the time to yes, so the time to approval for more complicated mortgages decreased from 7 days to 5 days. So if you have a very simple mortgage like we have the digital mortgage in countries like Germany, we can give approvals in approximately 30 minutes on average, but more complicated mortgages need intervention. There's some nonhappy flow and nonhappy flow we're currently attacking with Agentic mortgages in the Netherlands, but we're also going to launch this in other markets. The second area is coding, how can we code quicker and bring things to market quicker at a more efficient pace.

And the third element is productivity that we have seen in our operations coming through. And that's why you also see on one of the pages with our scalable growth in the earlier in the presentation, that's Page 5, that we see that we can grow at relatively lower marginal costs, and that's what we continue to do. So yes, AI is part of it, but it's not all of it.

Operator: And we'll now take our next question from Chris Hallam of Goldman Sachs.

Chris Hallam: Just first, I wanted to dig into this disconnect, I guess, between the direction of travel for this year versus the LTAs because if I take the headline P&L this today and then you announced Q4 provision, I can see how earnings estimates maybe for this year need to move down by around 4% or so. But the core trends are strong. And if I take all those noncore headwinds in turn, they seem quite positive for the out year. So the other income headwind hit in Q3, you're going to earn that back over time on the provision miss. That's mainly a one-off overlay that should reduce cyclicality to a degree.

On the higher incidentals, that's a EUR 63 million restructuring that you're paying for EUR 40 million of earnings. And then you have the Q4 EUR 175 million provision my guess is that's mainly severance, so earnings positive in '28. I think you did EUR 75 million earnings tailwind from 2028 earlier on the call. So have I got that all right because on the incidentals and the Wholesale Bank division, you're basically buying in earnings at 2x PE, which is a bit of a headwind for this year, but obviously a fairly logical thing to do.

And then second, the fee momentum is strong this year, but you've also, I think, talked previously about having slightly more selective approach to deposit campaigns all else equal. And I just wondered whether that there's a risk that, that leads to fewer new customer relationships, less cross-sell and maybe ultimately slower fee growth, i.e., does protecting NII today potentially risk fees tomorrow?

Steven van Rijswijk: You said a lot in the first question. But I think generally, you got it right. So in terms of that, we create a bit of short-term pain for long-term benefit. By the way, so that is both on the provision that we've taken in the previous quarters and this quarter and the benefit that, that brings and the same goes for Wholesale Banking. Also on the risk cost, this was an IFRS model update, so it has nothing to do with our asset quality and therefore, it can be considered as a one-off. So that has nothing to do with the assets or the models or the ECB or what have you?

So we've also not changed the outlook for 2026. So the returns that we are saying that we would make in '26, we repeat it today. But for sure, it will give all the actions that we're taking will give us further tailwinds for the years to come. And as always, we give an outlook for the next year with the fourth quarter activities with fourth quarter figures, and we will give a further long-term outlook in 2030. On the -- I'm not sure I got the second question right, but the question maybe was if you then take the restructurings and have less people will it also bite you commercially because you can do that.

Now that is absolutely not the case. And also banking, we're taking this measure to just simplify and make it easier for our people to deal with customers and be less concerned with all kinds of internal processes and other restructuring costs typically has to do with merging, for example, legal entities and therefore, merging back offices into 1 because we don't need that complication anymore. Sometimes it has to do with better digital journeys and digitalization. Sometimes it has to do with the less need for branches. So no, it is all focused on how can we make the business with our clients easier and serve them better.

And as you have seen in the many years that we've been doing that, we have been able to have more activity with customers rather than less, and that's what we will continue to do.

Operator: [Operator Instructions] And we will now move on to our next question from Juan Lopez Cobo of Santander.

Juan Lopez Cobo: Yes. I've got 2 questions. First one is regarding the other retail business. We see an increase in cost operating expenses -- you already explained that you are investing in different regions, in different business. It will be interesting if you could share any KPI. What are you asking for some of these investments? If you're investing EUR 100 million in SME lending in Spain, what's the return that we could expect.

Steven van Rijswijk: And Related to this, we saw other banks trying to develop SME franchise, and it's been challenging. Why do you think this time could be different for you? And second question, a bit more detail regarding your sovereign and sub-sovereign portfolio. This is around EUR 100 million portfolio. We see the accounting mix, but it would be interesting to get a bit more color on how you manage this portfolio duration, if you are comfortable with, I guess, the country mix and maybe if you could share some unrealized loss or the amortized cost, that could be also useful.

Unknown Executive: Yes. Thank you very much. On the retail business, clearly, we have business cases for all the individual investments that are being made in private banking and in putting countries on the investment platform and in business banking. And that is leading to higher returns, as you can also see, by the way, on the RoTE, whereby we now have 16% and have an outlook that is 2 percentage points higher than initially anticipated in 2024. And so growing the difference wasn't called growing the difference for nothing. It was about more impact and more relevance in the markets in which we're active.

And talking about Spain, for example, we have a good -- very good private individual franchise and a good wholesale banking franchise. that's now going to be called commercial and institutional banking franchise, CIB. But we did not have full activities in PI. We have no activities in business banking, whether it was self-employed SME or business banking. And therefore, there was no private banking. And therefore, you see that banks where we perform very well, look at the Netherlands, for example, are full-fledged universal banks. And that's also the direction we're traveling into in other markets as well, step by step.

And the reason why it will be successful now, I think there's much more focus on specific services that we offer to specific groups. That's why I also said previously in the past, where we came from was much more, but I'm polarizing the point, a one size fits all banks that we offer everything in the same way in the same -- to the same type of clients in different markets. But we are becoming with offering more services, we're becoming more bespoke, who do we offer trading capabilities in terms of investments? Where do we give advice?

How do we deal with affluent, -- how do we deal with mass affluent, -- how do we deal with exts do we deal with SMEs. So becoming more relevant and impactful also means that you also not only provide a superior customer experience, but you also provide superior customer value, making sure you provide the right service or the right product at the right moment to the right type of clients. And that's what we're now doing more and more, and you see the benefits of that already. Let me take an example. We have this investment platform that we launched getting people to invest on the same platform in different markets, so Netherlands, Belgium, Romania, for example, Poland.

And therefore, what you already see is that also in Romania, which we launched only end of September, there's a quick pickup of that people want to invest ING, where ING in Romania wasn't even known for investments in the past. And those things we're also going to do in Spain.

Steven van Rijswijk: On the sovereign bond portfolio, Ia?

Ida Lerner: Yes. So we have a diversified and high-quality investment portfolio of EUR 125 billion. The portfolio is, as I said, highly diversified and is also -- has limited the sensitivity to market developments as we economically hedge the interest rate risk and are therefore, only exposed to credit spreads. Historically, we've seen very limited impact on our capital. And also this quarter, there was no material impact on core equity Tier 1. We are not displaying or announcing the duration or the country mix per se, but I can just give you assurance that it's diversified and it's also a high-quality investment portfolio across the board.

Operator: And we'll now take our next question from Harry Sum of KBW.

Unknown Analyst: I just want to ask kind of a question about how you think about kind of funding and maybe the loan-to-deposit ratio specifically between the group level and between the divisions. I mean wholesale banking has got a much higher loan-to-deposit ratio, but then say Germany is quite low. To say if Germany was to go from 70% to kind of 80%, would you be looking to kind of bring that loan-to-deposit ratio down in Germany specifically to kind of manage at the group level? Or would you kind of say actually 80% is still low in Germany?

So just kind of how you conceptually think about -- and then my second question, I can see deposit costs have increased 6 basis points this quarter. How much of that is related to the 2 view campaigns? And how much is sort of related to kind of 3Q promising?

Steven van Rijswijk: So the second question is for Ida and think I will do the question on the loan-to-deposit ratio. By the way, in the previous question, I said investment products or platform launched also in 4 countries, including Poland, but that had to be Italy. Neves Belgium, Italy, Romania. On loan-to-deposit ratio between franchises, yes, we look at it as a whole. So there are many means. So, in general, you've seen us growing in deposits and loans in a similar pace, sometimes the positive growth as some in lending growth faster. And in the end, you want to keep a balanced balance sheet.

And so that means that all the mix of our asset liability management, we look at that, not per se on a geographic basis, but we very much look at that from a return point of view, and that's why I've also said we are continuously shifting the balance in our capital from wholesale to retail and retail were expanding also different activities in different markets. As we just talked about in the previous question and wholesale banking, we need to make sure we continue to invest and develop our TS transaction see financial markets franchise and therefore, also make sure that we are more curtailed on capital, and that's what you see.

So that's how we look at capital and it's also brought how we look at liquidity, that we do that in a balanced way on a global basis, not country by country or business line by business line. Then on deposit costs.

Ida Lerner: Yes. Thank you for the question. We're not giving explicit numbers in terms of how much was due to campaigns overall. But as we've said before, deposit competition remained broadly rational in most markets, and our core savings hardly changed so far. When looking at this in the context of this quarter, you will also see that it fluctuates depending on which campaigns we do in which markets we are more active and where we're also seeing the growth coming from.

This quarter, you saw an increase in term deposits, which was driven by successful campaigns to attract new volumes as well as to optimize retention and value of the overall deposit mix, which is also seen in our numbers this quarter. But again, I think it's also important to look at the seasonality and the difference that we've seen quarter-over-quarter, but continues to see good growth overall. .

Operator: Thank you. There are no further questions in queue. I will now hand it back to Steven Van Rijswijk for closing remarks.

Steven van Rijswijk: Yes. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you very much for your good questions. And we're looking forward, of course, to speak to you again at the fourth quarter results. And especially, we're looking forward to seeing you on our Capital Markets Day, which is on the 14th of June in London. So stay tuned, and have a great day.

Operator: Thank you. This concludes today's call. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect.

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