Las Vegas Sands (LVS) Q2 2025 Earnings Transcript

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DATE

Wednesday, July 23, 2025 at 4:30 p.m. ET

CALL PARTICIPANTS

Chairman and Chief Executive Officer — Rob Goldstein

President and Chief Operating Officer — Patrick Dumont

Executive Vice Chairman of Sands China — Dr. Wilfred Wong

Chief Executive Officer and President of Sands China, EVP of Asia Operations — Grant Chum

Senior Vice President of Investor Relations — Daniel Briggs

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RISKS

Macau Market Share: Chairman and CEO Goldstein said, "We have underperformed in this market. We did not address enough as it relates to customer reinvestment. We believe our buildings would be enough. We were wrong.", indicating that prior strategy did not keep pace with competitive dynamics, driving a necessary shift in approach.

Macau EBITDA Margin Compression: President and COO Dumont reported, EBITDA margin for the Macau portfolio would have been 31.3% in Q2 2025, down 80 basis points compared to the second quarter of 2024."

TAKEAWAYS

Consolidated Macau EBITDA: $566 million for the quarter ended June 30, 2025, including a $7 million favorable hold impact — adjusted margin was 31.3%, when adjusted for higher than expected hold in the rolling segment.

Marina Bay Sands (Singapore) EBITDA: $768 million at a 55.3% margin for the quarter ended June 30, 2025; $107 million of EBITDA attributable to higher-than-expected hold in the rolling program.

Macau Mass Gaming and Slot Win: $843 million in Q2 2025, up 97% compared to Q2 2019 and 40% higher year over year compared to Q2 2024.

Londoner Grand Full Launch: All 2,450 rooms and suites were available during the last two months of Q2 2025, contributing to an annualized EBITDA run rate near $800 million for Londoner Macao.

Return of Capital: $800 million of LVS stock was repurchased in Q2 2025, and the company paid a recurring dividend of $0.25 per share.

Increased Stake in Sands China Ltd. (SCL): $179 million of SCL stock was purchased during Q2 2025 and July, raising LVS’s ownership in SCL to 73.4% as of July 2025.

Macau Portfolio EBITDA Margins by Asset: The Venetian at 35.6% in Q2 2025, The Plaza/Four Seasons at 34% in Q2 2025, and the Londoner at 31.9% in Q2 2025.

Sequential Macau Mass GGR Market Share Increase: CEO Goldstein stated that we saw a sequential improvement in our mass GGR market share of 8% in Q2 2025.

Retail Mall Growth: Macau tenant sales in the retail portfolio increased by approximately 10% year-over-year in Q2 2025, with luxury sales improving during Q2 2025 but remaining comparatively weaker.

Macau Segment Reinvestment and Promotion: Management noted a portfolio-wide increase in reinvestment and promotional activity beginning in late April, aimed at recapturing market share and driving revenue.

SUMMARY

Management directly acknowledged underperformance and the need for more competitive customer reinvestment in Macau, shifting strategy mid-quarter and noting initial positive impacts in May and June. In Singapore, Marina Bay Sands set an unprecedented single-building EBITDA record of $768 million (non-GAAP) in Q2 2025, primarily driven by mass gaming and supported by high-value tourism and product investment, with leadership expressing confidence that an annualized $2.5 billion EBITDA (non-GAAP) is now achievable. The Londoner Grand’s full suite availability led to a meaningful ramp in annualized EBITDA, with further upside tied to ongoing ramp-up and high-end segment penetration. Shareholder returns remained a capital allocation priority, evidenced by significant buybacks and sustained dividends, while ownership in Sands China Ltd. was further increased. Macau’s retail recovery, especially in non-luxury segments, points to broad-based recovery, though hotel inventory constraints may limit overnight visitation growth.

CEO Goldstein said, targeting a $2.7 billion Macau EBITDA run rate in the near term, subject to sustained market acceleration.

Macau GGR recovery in Q2 2025 benefited from both improved citywide visitation and an active event calendar, with sequential growth in base mass and premium segments supported by the Greater Bay Area.

Competitive intensity in Macau remains elevated; management made clear that reinvestment levels will continue to be market-driven, without targeting a fixed EBITDA margin.

Upcoming Marina Bay Sands expansion construction is not expected to disrupt current operations or financial performance since the building site is adjacent and independent of the existing structure.

Singapore’s remarkable performance is attributed to completed renovations, a diverse premium mass patron base, and continued government support for tourism, with expansion initiatives expected to reinforce the long-term investment case.

INDUSTRY GLOSSARY

Rolling Program: A casino promotion targeting VIP or premium players, typically involving rolling chip play where patrons receive rebates or commissions based on wagering volume.

Hold Rate: The percentage of money bet at casino games retained by the house, impacted by game mix, player behavior, and side bets.

GGR (Gross Gaming Revenue): Total revenue generated from gaming activities before costs or expenses, a key measure of casino performance.

Full Conference Call Transcript

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Operator: Good day, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the Las Vegas Sands Corp. Second Quarter 2025 Earnings Call.

Operator: At this time, all participants have been placed on a listen-only mode.

Operator: And we will open the floor for your questions and comments following the presentation. It is now my pleasure to turn the floor over to Mr. Daniel Briggs, Senior Vice President of Investor Relations at Las Vegas Sands Corp. Sir, the floor is yours. Thank you. Joining the call today are Rob Goldstein, our Chairman and CEO, Patrick Dumont, our President and Chief Operating Officer, Dr. Wilfred Wong, Executive Vice Chairman of Sands China, and Grant Chum, CEO and President of Sands China, and EVP of our Asia operation. Today's conference call will contain forward-looking statements. We will be making those statements under the safe harbor provision of federal securities laws.

The language on forward-looking statements included in our press release and 8-K filing also applies to our comments made today. The company's actual results may differ materially from the results reflected in those forward-looking statements. In addition, we will discuss non-GAAP measures. Reconciliations to the most comparable GAAP financial measure are included in our press release. We have posted an earnings presentation on our website, and we will refer to that presentation during the call. Finally, for the Q&A session, we ask those participants to please pose one question and one follow-up so we might allow everyone with interest the opportunity to participate. This presentation is being recorded. I will now turn the call over to Rob.

Rob Goldstein: Thanks, Dan, and good afternoon. Thank you for joining us. Las Vegas Sands Corp. had a historic quarter with an EBITDA of $768 million. We had forecasted MBS could do $2.5 billion annually, and that may just happen this year. All the pieces are in place for this property to continue to perform. Mass gaming and slot win did $843 million, reflecting 97% growth in Q2 of 2019, percent higher than last year, same quarter. We are in the right place at the right time. Singapore is a very desirable destination. Our product is as good as it gets. It is difficult to find the superlatives that describe the magnitude of this result.

It is unprecedented for a single building to perform like this. Macau did $566 million of EBITDA for the quarter. We have underperformed in this market. We did not address enough as it relates to customer reinvestment. We believe our buildings would be enough. We were wrong. And so in the middle of the quarter, we changed our approach to enable us to increase market share and EBITDA. We will, however, be market sensitive. Our assets remain the strongest in the world. London is open and moving towards our goal of $1 billion in annualized EBITDA. This new approach will create higher market share and EBITDA. At the same time, Macau's GGR accelerated this quarter, a very positive sign.

Our goal is to even now those in accounts increase GGR, and our strong assets will enable us to deliver improved results in the future as a turn to path for more family.

Patrick Dumont: Thanks, Rob. The Macau EBITDA was $566 million. If we had held as expected in our rolling program, our EBITDA would have been lower by $7 million. When adjusted for higher than expected hold in the rolling segment, our EBITDA margin for the Macau portfolio properties would have been 31.3%, down 80 basis points compared to the second quarter of 2024. All 2,450 rooms and suites at the Londoner Grand were available for the last two months of the quarter. We are focused on delivering revenue and cash flow growth at the Londoner across the portfolio.

The margin at the Venetian was 35.6%, while the margin at the Plaza of Four Seasons was 34%, and the margin at the Londoner was 31.9%. We expect growth in EBITDA as revenues grow as we use our scale and product advantages together with targeted reinvestment to better address every market segment. Now turning to Singapore. MBS's EBITDA for the quarter was $768 million at a margin of 55.3%. If we had held as expected in our rolling program, our EBITDA would have been lower by $107 million. There will naturally be fluctuations in hold rate in any specific quarter driven by game mix and player preference.

The record financial results of Marina Bay Sands reflect the impact of high-quality investment, market-leading product, and the growth in high-value tourism. We believe we are still in the initial stages of realizing the benefits of our investments in Marina Bay Sands.

Patrick Dumont: Turning to our program to return capital to shareholders. We repurchased $800 million of LVS stock during the quarter. We also paid our recurring dividend of $0.25 per share. In addition, during the second quarter and in July, we purchased $179 million worth of SCL stock, increasing the company's ownership percentage of SCL to 73.4% as of today. We believe repurchase of LVS equity through our share repurchase program will be immediately accretive to the company and its shareholders over the long term. We look forward to continuing to utilize the company's share repurchase program to increase returns to shareholders. Thanks again for joining the call today. Now let's take questions.

Operator: Please press star one on your telephone keypad now. Also, we ask each participant to limit yourself to one question and one follow-up. Your first question is coming from Stephen Grambling from Morgan Stanley. Your line is live.

Stephen Grambling: Hey. Thank you. Starting with Macau, I appreciate the acknowledgment of the shortfall somewhat there, but perhaps remind us of how you are thinking about turning the tide from a competitive standpoint and what KPIs or timing investors should maybe be thinking about in terms of seeing some of the market share going the opposite direction?

Rob Goldstein: I will take that, Stephen. Thank you for the question. I think around late April, we started to implement a more aggressive customer reinvestment program. And I think we are seeing some encouraging initial results from those increased levels of reinvestment as we get into May and June. The performance of SCL did improve. And I think we will be continuing to adjust to the market conditions as and when necessary. We are also looking at opportunities for us to perform better from our smaller properties. Parisian and Sands, so overall, reception to London has been phenomenal. I think we are getting exceptional feedback from customers. And that is obviously growing nicely.

But obviously, this quarter is still just the start. All of the rooms, as Patrick referenced, were available from late April, and we intend to continue to yield better at London and Macau so that property has much further to go. And then the rest of the portfolio, we have to adjust our reinvestment levels according to the product and according to the individual product mix within the property. And I think this process has only just started, and we will continue to see, I think, improvements in our results as we have done since May and June already.

And as you can see, we have a sequential improvement in our mass GGR market share of 8% for the quarter, and we intend to drive better improvements and also hopefully recapture that market share in the coming quarters.

Patrick Dumont: So I just want to say one thing, which is we are not where we want to be in Macau. We feel like we have made great investments, we have great products, and we believe we can grow EBITDA from here. We are very focused on it. We realize we have work to do in our reinvestment programs. We have things that we think we can do to be more competitive, and we are going to take some action. And we think we have an approach that we hope in the long run will create growth for us, both on the revenue and EBITDA side. So maybe one quick follow-up there just on Macau.

Stephen Grambling: You said you are not where you want to be. What does that mean for capital allocation in that market? You know, you used to have a pretty healthy dividend payout in that market as a percentage of free cash flow and earnings. If you go, I mean, should we be waiting for that turnaround to see you go back down that path? And you start, you know, paying out a dividend, is that prior kind of ratio the right way to think about it going forward?

Patrick Dumont: Yeah. So I think the key thing is that, you know, we have always been focused on return of capital, typically with the dividend at the SCL level. You know, I think as we see the CapEx roll off from the Londoner, which was a very meaningful investment that we feel will generate cash flow over the long term, and we are happy to make it. But that being said, hopefully, our CapEx profile looks better in the future, as you can see from our CapEx expectations that we publish. And so when that happens, we will look to return to increasing the dividend over time with the support of the SCL board.

But for us, we think that the best use of free cash there, other than investing in growth projects, is to return it to shareholders. And you have seen how we have handled it in the past, and we will look forward to doing that again in the future. And I think the levels will be based on our expectations of cash flow production going forward.

Stephen Grambling: Great. I will yield to the floor. Thank you.

Operator: Thank you. Your next question is coming from Shaun Kelley from Bank of America. Your line is live.

Shaun Kelley: Hi. Good afternoon, everyone. You know, for Grant or whoever wants to take it, maybe we could just start in Macau. We did see across the market a bit of an improvement sequentially as the quarter went on in sort of overall market GGR. We have heard some mixed views about how either promotionally driven or VIP or event-driven that was. So hoping to get a little bit of color on just what is driving that improvement, how sustainable you think it is, and just broader health of the macro in the market right now?

Grant Chum: Sure. Thanks for the question, Shaun. I think the market clearly accelerated from May, and June obviously was a standout performance, I think helped by the calendar of events that prevailed in June. If you look at the segment breakdown, clearly, as you can see from the DRCJ data as well, rolling the VIP segment performed very well during the quarter and was up 26% year on year, up by our estimates. But the non-rolling and then slot win also improved, and we are still in the high single-digit growth region for the quarter. So I think there are some very encouraging signs.

I think a mix between improved city but also the calendar of events and the offerings by the operators helping to drive the increased patronage as well.

Shaun Kelley: Thanks for that, Grant. And then maybe just to switch gears as a follow-up on Singapore. Rob, obviously, incredible performance on the numbers. I mean, over $700 million from a single building in a single quarter is kind of hard to wrap your brain around. Can you give us your best stab at how we should think about, you know, maybe a run rate or level of productivity for this property moving forward? Are we sustainably above $600 million of EBITDA a quarter?

I know what we have a good sense of what your stretch goal here is at $2.5 billion core, but just help us think about it to level set expectations given it was not a fairly easy comp on the mass market. And obviously, VIP, you know, it can be volatile quarter to quarter on the handle side. Thanks.

Rob Goldstein: It is hard to predict, is it not? I mean, I do not think we forecasted a $770 million quarter. I do not think we have a clear view of it. If this is sustainable, this go forward. You know, it is proving that it would be an amazing market, and we have the best assets by far in the market. So how high is up and how deep is that well? I do not know. The truth is it would be very difficult to dismiss these results and say, we are now heading through $2.5 billion. Do we need to get to $2.6 billion, $2.7 billion? Can I continue? It is showing it is very hard to predict.

It is not an easy market. There has never been anything like this in the history of gaming anywhere. You know, you realize this thing this run rate is a $3 billion asset. We do not expect to do that now, think, yeah, $2.5 billion is realistic and doable. But I would not want to venture a guess. I would not want to dismiss the results because I want to overhype them and say, every quarter is $750 million. I think that is unfair. But could we do $600 million plus or $650 million? Possibly. Yeah. It depends on how strong the economy remains over there and the super high end the markets there. And we dominate it.

And we are kind of low in that place as far as the super high end. So it could be that we are looking at a whole new world of Singapore, and we will have to wait and see. Time will tell. We just do not know. We did not see this coming this early. We have only come later. That is here. So deal with it.

Shaun Kelley: Thank you very much.

Operator: Thank you. Your next question is coming from Dan Politzer from JPMorgan. Your line is live.

Dan Politzer: Hey, good afternoon, everyone. Thanks for taking my question. I just wanted to go back and circle on Macau. Right? It seems like you guys are, you know, going to be more promotional. You are, you know, going to get, you know, be focused on generating that EBITDA level. Is there a targeted EBITDA share that we should think about that kind of gets you to where you want to be just looking at the historical 33% to 35% EBITDA share you have had in that market, or, you know, how should we kind of assess, you know, your strategy there and when your KPIs for getting back to a level you think is appropriate?

Rob Goldstein: I think we should take this one step at a time. Our goal we acknowledge our failure in believing our assets were so strong we could overcome this very different environment we are used to. We have now jumped at the water. We are not leading the market. We are simply in the mix. And that is a good thing. I believe our assets our short-term goal in your quarters is to get we believe the Londoner and Venetian can generate $2 billion between them. We believe that the Four Seasons will do $300 million plus IT operation do $300 million plus. We need to stand to do $100 million more because things are changing down to pencil.

Our short-term goal, my goal I hope the team shares that, is that we can get a $2.7 billion run rate and come off the bottom here. I think at $2.2 billion, $2.3 billion, we are just not performing well enough. We have the best assets, so three things, acceleration of GGR is very helpful. The most important thing by far is that. Second thing is we have the best the biggest assets in that town. The most rooms, the best product. And third thing is we have come off our thinking. We changed our thinking.

So I am hoping that Grant and team can see near future, you know, $600 million plus $650 million down the road and get us on the back to the $2.6 billion, $2.7 billion range. That is our short-term goal. Beyond that, wait until the market matures. Let us face it. If this market turns on the accelerate to this rate, we might see everyone doing much better. That would be a best in all Macau. I think it is very possible that happens in 2025, even 2026, 2027. So this is just our acknowledgment that we did not do a good enough job in that environment, and we are doing it now.

And we are full phase, and our team over there, our assets perform and get us back in the game.

Dan Politzer: Got it. Thanks. That is helpful detail. Just to follow-up on Singapore. You know, is there any way to kind of wrap our heads around that sudden acceleration in those gaming volumes? Because it does seem like those it is pretty concentrated on just the gaming side. And, I mean, we are trying to parse this out if there were new customers, maybe reception for the property improvements and new suite product. Anything in the event calendar? Just trying to make sense of what is obviously, you know, typically the seasonally softest quarter of the year here to be so strong.

Patrick Dumont: I think a lot of it has to do with the product. You know, we spent the last couple of years reinvesting there significantly. Not only in the physical product, but also in the service levels, the experience we can provide to people. And the type of customer we have coming through the property and the nature where Singapore sits today, the growing economies are well created in Southeast Asia. It just it is all working. We have a very strong view on the future of Singapore. You can see by the type of customers that we have coming in, that it is not only a very strong market, but it is very deep.

And so for us, yes, there are new customers coming in. They are attracted by what we have on offer. They are coming to Singapore to do business. They are coming to Singapore for leisure travel. And they are showing up on renter-based ads, and they are consuming. So it is great. It is a tribute to the team there and the investment that we have made and the way we execute. But really there, it is just a reflection of who is coming into the market and the fact that we provide experiences that are pretty unique and they are really taking advantage of. We are a different building than we were five years ago.

If you come and visit and you see it, you will see the differences and realize that we attract a very high level of patron.

Rob Goldstein: I think you also have to give credit to the government of Singapore, which allows us to train and excel. And Patrick referenced that building there last week for the groundbreaking November of the second building. It is an amazing place, but the market is also four billion Asian people at the very top and looking for an extraordinary experience and assets we have in space over there. I think the truth is that building the system is desirable, it is super high end. And there is lots of a lot of people to Singapore. And propensity to gamble, as you know, is high in that part of the world. So we are just in a very fortunate position.

I do not see it changing. I think we are in a very privileged position and hoping this long for a long time. So we are not one to forecast that it is $600 million, $700 million, $800 million a quarter. But we know we are in the right place, right time with extraordinarily strong assets. And excellent government support, and a very strong market in terms of Singapore visitation.

Patrick Dumont: Like, one other thing that is important to note is we started to see some inklings of this as we started finishing the renovation. But now everything is pretty much done. And so we are starting to see the results as we build customer experience and as they get to experience the property and see how it is to be there and the different things that we offer, in this new format. It is starting to show results. I mean, this is really just a direct result of the completion of the renovation and the type of customers that we can attract. With the products that are there now.

Dan Politzer: Got it. Thanks. It is nice to see the investment there for Thanks.

Operator: Thank you. Your next question is coming from Brandt Montour from Barclays. Your line is live.

Brandt Montour: Good afternoon or good evening, everybody. Thanks for taking my question. So my first question is on Macau. I think from where we sit, it is sort of hard to we see we see clearly a strengthening of the Chinese consumer in your market and gambling propensity. I was wondering if you could flesh that out a little bit and talk about spend per visit improvement sequentially across either base mass or premium mass. We all kind of thought it would be a premium mass sort of recovery here in May and June, but I look at your slides, it looks like base mass upper table actually did better.

So maybe you could just provide a little more color on who is spending more where.

Grant Chum: Hi, Brandt. Maybe I will take that question. I think overall visitation has been very strong. You see results for April and May are up by over 20% year on year. Obviously, a lot of that is driven by the data visitors from the Greater Bay Area. But nonetheless, I think that is helping to drive some of the base mass recovery. But no question, I think, the acceleration GGR is still primarily driven by the premium segments. I think this quarter in particular, the market benefited from some big rolling play. But also at the high end of the premium mass. So I think that those dynamics remain similar to previous quarters.

But we are beginning to see also increased level of visitation, albeit more from the Greater Bay Area. In terms of patrons. And then, of course, from our results as well, sequentially, I think you alluded to it. Clearly, we grew quite significantly in the base mass on rolling wind against Q1. And that is partly driven by the opening of the Londoner Grand.

Brandt Montour: Okay. That is super helpful. And then just a quick follow-up. On Macau. You know, the Londoner results clearly had a nice bounce here in the second quarter. And you alluded to in your prepared remarks that some of the other properties did not do quite as well. Am I to read between the lines that the Londoner is the property that has received the most incremental reinvestment activity and the other properties have not, and that is kind of mixed up in terms of your, sort of blueprint or game plan here, or is that not the right read through?

Grant Chum: No. That is not entirely accurate. In terms of high reinvestment levels, that just went into the portfolio across the board. I think what we are referencing earlier remarks is that we may need to further and we have been further adjusting our reinvestment levels during the quarter towards the end of the quarter for some of our smaller properties. Because we think those products, given the size of the product level, may need recalibration in the reinvestment levels versus the natural patronage that is flocking to Londoner. And also the strength of the property like Venetian continues to be able to attract customers at all segments.

Brandt Montour: Great color. Thanks, everyone.

Operator: Thanks, Brandt. Thank you. Your next question is coming from Robin Farley from UBS. Your line is live.

Robin Farley: Great. Thank you. Just going back to the acceleration you talked about in June in Macau, it seems like, you know, it driven at least a fair amount of it by the events calendar. And so how do you get comfortable that it is sustainable as you get past, you know, some of the July events and the calendar not being as sustainable in terms of events.

Grant Chum: I think, Robin, the calendar is being filled literally every week, every month by all of the different operators, us included. The change from before the pandemic is really every operator is contributing to the event calendar. And, of course, the big events brought in whether by us at the Venetian arena or by our competitor is beneficial to the entire market. When we have significant acts. And that will obviously not be a consistent pattern, because acts come in different times of the year and different length, duration of play and so on. But you can be sure that the calendar will continue to be filled with great entertainment content.

And I think Macau has really been successful in establishing itself as a regional center for entertainment, be it from Greater China artists, Asian artists, even international artists.

Rob Goldstein: Robin, I would just add to Grant's comments that I think it was last year I would not give us credit in Singapore because Taylor Swift made the whole thing happen. She was not available this quarter, but still did pretty well. I think the truth I think she was could not get her to come. She was busy. But the truth is we have in Macau, yes, lots of events. But I have learned over the years that events rearrange the customer visitation. You do not necessarily create new much as the rearrange will come and go. And I think that market is showing strength, the strength in June results. I think you just see a building.

And, yes, there is no question we have a Jackie Chung in somebody's high-end entertainer health. But again, I think you have to look at the strength of the market overall, and I believe it is there. I have not been there last month to look the first time it looked like pre-pandemic Macau. Very strong, a lot of people at tables. Do not believe the entertainers even special events, that should create more business. We arrange when you come. But so I would not be that concerned with the event count. Although, it is chock full of events, everyone has entertainment these days and terrific restaurants, etcetera.

But I think you have to look at the beautiful results the last few months to be very encouraged when the calendar year is we had.

Robin Farley: Okay. Great. Thank you. And for the follow-up, just a quick one. Are you thinking about revisiting what you can a normal hold percent in Singapore? And I know you just raised it in Q1, but I am wondering if you are thinking about whether that 3.7% was high enough for normalized hold. Thanks.

Rob Goldstein: I would not let one quarter drive your thinking. I think you have to stay focused on. Again, this is a very, very difficult thing for us and other competitors because as you know, whole percentage is a moving target these days, driven by who bets what. How. And so it really does move. As you go to smart tables that enable us to see much more clearly. Great insight into how the market should perform. I am going to move our whole percentage right now. Until we see more evidence, but it does change with the market and visitation. Types of best customers make. In the old days, it was No. 2.85, 3.25. That is no longer in Vowel.

It is now very much a moving target. Depending on who is coming, what they are betting, side bets versus top bets. I think we will come back to you in the future if we need to reassess right now, and we are fine where we are at.

Robin Farley: Okay. Thank you.

Operator: Thank you. Your next question is coming from Joseph Stauff from Susquehanna. Your line is live.

Joseph Stauff: Okay. Thank you. Afternoon. In Singapore, you know, maybe a different attempt to ask, you know, a similar question that we have heard earlier on the call, but can I ask about just sort of mass gaming revenue and how strong it was? You know, is that simply a function of, you know, better hold, is it increased visitation? You know, it is admittedly another question that just tries to have a bent, you know, try to benchmark with the newer product that you have in Singapore, you know, how strong this number could be? Obviously, VIP is, you know, a separate category.

Different level of volatility, but, you know, how much is there any way to disaggregate this number a little bit more for understanding?

Rob Goldstein: Hey. Just say this. Not going to lie to answer, but it is very difficult for us to do it. As long as you do $843 million up 97% pre-pandemic. And 40% higher year on year. It is hard for us to get our hands around it. But there is a whole lot of people show up. In all these segments, and getting the outsized amounts of money. And your question is a fair one. I wish we had better answers. How deep is the well? How wide can this thing go? We are confused ourselves by it. Because we expected $2.5 billion, and now I think we can say we can achieve it this year.

And I think it is a combination of incredible market, incredible access to, you know, people who get there, the Visa situation is helpful, and I think you are seeing the results of very, very superlative results into the building. Building is just unique and special, and there is lots of product. So I know it is difficult to I hear your frustration. We share it. We got over we do not exaggerate this and say we will run $3 billion. We also do not want to underplay. We want to accept the fact it happened, and it has happened now two quarters of really strong results. Hoping for a similar second half of the year.

And it is hard to model. I would be blunt with you. Think one thing I would say you say, Masp gave me premium mass gaming is alive and well in those numbers. You know, these are non-rolling very high rolling. Do not consider people betting $1,000 a hand. This premium mass segment which is in that $847 million or $843 million, there is a lot of very, very high-end non-rollers, you know, which is different than past Macau. So I appreciate the commentary of your question. It is very fair. I wish we had more insightful answers, but we keep watching this thing and saying, you know, we lost a quarter with amazement. But just kept coming.

And I think, oh, just keep coming in Singapore. Whether we beat the customer is a different issue, it was 3.7, 3.3, we never could know. But the volumes look strong, and to me, it appears like we are at a run here that they last for a long time.

Joseph Stauff: Gotcha. And then maybe a follow-up. You know, Formula One is pushing the fourth quarter in Singapore this year. Versus September last. What is the right way to think about, you know, whether or not the rest of the building can absorb the, you know, that normal activity or, you know, do you view that as, you know, a bit of a headwind?

Patrick Dumont: Formula One is always a great event for Singapore. It is something that we fully support. We are an integral part of. And we always welcome it. And I think our patrons really enjoy it. You know, a lot of visitors show up in Singapore because of this event. And for us, whenever it happens, it is great. So if it is third quarter, fourth quarter, we are happy with it. You know, we do our best to support the initiative around it because we think it is great for Singapore. It is great for Marina Bay Sands and the type of customers that show up are always very helpful.

But in terms of being able to accommodate customers in Q3, during Golden Week with Formula One, it is fine. Either way, it works.

Joseph Stauff: Understood. Thanks a lot.

Operator: Thank you. Your next question is coming from Chad Beynon from Macquarie. Your line is live.

Chad Beynon: Hi. Good afternoon. Thanks for taking my question. Wanted to go back to Macau, Rob. You mentioned $2.7 billion as the near-term, you know, NorthStar and hopefully that eventually moves kind of back to $3 billion. But wanted to approach it from a margin standpoint. So Londoner had nice improvement in margin, you know, the collective was down 80 basis points as you guys called out. And the flow-through was obviously negative here for the quarter.

But does margin matter as much in terms of how you are thinking about running the business or given maybe we should not have a margin some of the commentary that we have spoken about with promos, target in mind just because of simple inflation. And a different approach towards promo, or is that still the case to get to, you know, closer to a 40% margin long term? Thanks.

Patrick Dumont: So I think the key thing about Macau is that there is a very large fixed cost base in our property portfolio. And so our margin is going to be determined by how much revenue we can push through these buildings. And so if our promotional activity, if our customer reinvestment makes us a little less competitive and we have less revenue, our margins will be impacted. So I think for us, x hold. Right? If you ignore the impact of hold, if we continue to have the best properties where we have great offerings for our customers, and great experiences, and then we reinvest in a more market competitive way.

We think we will still have the ability to drive revenue at an appropriate margin. And so if you look at the margin regime where we are today, that is okay for now. But then we grow revenues, grow the business over time, there might be some opportunity for some upside. But I do not think we are looking at a specific EBITDA margin in terms of our reinvestment guidance. Our reinvestment guidance is going to be based on the market, hopefully, we will grow revenues based on our product portfolio. We put a whole lot of new products into the market this last quarter. Right? The Londoner Grand is a whole new building.

And the casino performance there is great. We have tremendous spot performance coming out of the Londoner. Total portfolio. And I think for us, as you heard Grant, as you heard Rob mentioned before, we have some work to do. That being said, I think there are opportunities in the creation. I think there are opportunities in the Four Seasons. And even downtown in the Sands, we think there is opportunity. So while we keep pushing the Venetian to Londoner, our segmentation had different reinvestment requirements. And we are going to keep looking at it and evaluating the segmentation across different properties to ensure that we can optimize for revenue growth. And cash flow growth.

And so we are not targeting a specific EBITDA margin, but we believe over time as we have the opportunity to grow revenues, the margin will fall.

Rob Goldstein: And, Chad, margin does matter. But EBITDA matters more. And in any business, you have to be sensitive to the environment you are playing in, and the environment there has changed. We were sensitive enough. So now we are going to adjust that coupled with our strong asset. We add that to a growing surge in GGR. I think you have a good formula, but obviously, we always want to be margin sensitive. We want to be EBITDA. Sensitive too. So it is a combination. It is not a simple question to answer. Each building performs differently.

Chad Beynon: Great. Thank you both. And then the news that we have seen in terms of the movement from the Thai cabinet, you know, with withdrawing the bill at this point for legalized casinos. I guess there is probably no update from your end because we are probably reading the same information, but anything to talk about there or any other potential developments that you guys plan to pursue outside of the two markets that you are in?

Patrick Dumont: Thank you. I think we are constantly looking at new development growth opportunities in new jurisdictions. We are evaluating them as they come along. You know, it is something that we feel like in Thailand, there is a great opportunity there. If the legal framework and the regulatory framework is appropriate, something we will definitely look at and consider. As of right now, as you just mentioned, there is not a whole lot to think about.

Rob Goldstein: Thailand is the greatest opportunity in Asia. What is left of those countries. It is so hard to tell us how to do day-to-day changes, but it certainly is for anybody in our industry. A very important place if it ever actually comes to fruition.

Chad Beynon: Thanks. Appreciate it.

Operator: Thank you. Your next is coming from Lizzie Dove from Goldman Sachs. Your line is live.

Lizzie Dove: Hi there. Thanks for taking the question. You mentioned earlier that the goal of the Londoner is to move towards the goal of a billion dollars in annualized EBITDA. Curious, you know, timing of that, how much more reinvestment, gonna promotions are needed to get there, and, yeah, more so just the cadence to get there.

Grant Chum: I think we are only just started, ramping up the property. I mean, if you think about the Londoner Grand, it really only fully launched in May onwards. So we are still in the very early innings of the ramp-up in London. And we are already running, you know, close to $800 million annualized. So we do see opportunity to yield higher and higher across all of the hotels in London Macau, but especially London and Grand. I think Patrick just referenced there with we are seeing exceptional slot in EDG performance out of London already way surpassing what this building was achieving in 2019. And I think we are seeing high levels of non-rolling table performance as well.

And so as all these segments continue to grow, and we put higher quality customers into the suites and the rooms. We will get to that $1 billion annualized that Rob referenced. That is the goal. We do not know the exact timing, but we are pretty clear only at the very start of the ramp-up.

Lizzie Dove: Got it. Makes sense. And then just going back to the promotionality side of things, obviously, it is something you have been kind of ramping up over the last couple of months. So I am curious what you have seen from other players and how the competitive environment has evolved whether they have responded with, you know, the same level of promotionality, whether there has been a rash.

Grant Chum: The market continues to be very competitive. I do not think the intensity is dropping at all. Each operator is fighting for a greater share of the pie. I think the main difference, of course, this quarter is that we also are in the mix now in terms of reinvestment levels. Back to the customer. And we see the response we see the initial signs are encouraging. And, of course, it is more biased towards the high-end segments where the levels of customer investment are shifting the players back to our properties. Or gaining new customers, especially through the Londoner.

So that process will continue and we will continue to evaluate, but we do not expect the competitive dynamics to ease off. I think that will continue to be intense. But, of course, a high level of GGR and acceleration in the market growth will help all of us like Rolf mentioned, that is still the single biggest factor. In determining the results of not just our performance, but of the whole market.

Lizzie Dove: Got it. Thank you.

Grant Chum: Thanks, Lizzie.

Operator: Thank you. Your next question is coming from George Choi from Citigroup. Your line is live.

George Choi: Thank you very much for taking my question. So over the past several months, we have seen you guys took the side desk from Marina Bay Sands and introduced them to your Macau operation. And just recently, we saw you guys added a progressive jackpot to your background music account, and we believe that all those also run-in from Marina Bay Sands. So my question is, do you still have any best practices at Marina Bay Sands that your Macau operations can learn from?

Rob Goldstein: It is a work in progress, George. We obviously trade information back and forth based on best practices, and we saw a lot of success in Singapore with side bets. I think we will see it in Macau, and we continue, as you know, ahead of us. You are over there. You are so on top of this. It is frightening. But congratulations. I think the truth is we are learning as we go. I am a firm believer that these markets are not that different in terms of customer activity. I think in the end, you will see a lifetime result in the calendar time. It is newer to the Macau market. It is a longer it approved there.

But really confident that this new era of smart tables, side beds, which is increasing whole percentage for everyone all of our competitors as well. Is highly positive for the industry. And exciting for the customers. So time will tell how long it takes to see the increased toll percentage and how much they move towards side beds, but we are big believers in this. As long as we are trying to be very innovative as you alluded to in your comments. And how we view the markets and gambling is changing every day. We want to be leaders in that evolving process.

George Choi: Thank you very much for the great color. I will jump back to the queue.

Operator: Thank you. Your next question is coming from David Katz from Jefferies. Your line is live.

David Katz: Afternoon, everyone. Thanks for taking my questions. I wanted to start with Singapore. Where there is obviously significant investment coming, you know, for further expansion. And, you know, things have started to finally really go well in the core building. And, you know, frankly, we have been waiting for it for a few years. I want to make sure, you know, when there is not construction disruption or, you know, what if anything just to make sure, could sort of impact the momentum that you have there in Singapore?

Patrick Dumont: So just a couple of things. The site is adjacent to Marina Bay Sands. So in the renovation work, we did at Marina Bay Sands, in the prior years that you referenced, it was actually an actively operating building while we were doing it. So it is a little bit like changing your tires in the middle of an F1 race. While you are driving. And so we did that. And so the good news is the building is in terms of suite renovation, interior is complete. Starting to see the benefits of that in the results of this quarter. Our expansion and we actually had the groundbreaking last week. Dr. Adelson was there, Rob was there. I was there.

I was there. Some other members of the LVS management team were there. Anderson was there. There. And most importantly, the prime minister and the minister, Grace Booz, responsible for the portfolio was there. It was an amazing groundbreaking. And we are very happy to have the government support, and we are very fortunate to be in Singapore. And so, you know, this is a very important complex for tourism for both leisure and business tourism in the market. And for us, any disruption is something we take really seriously. And so the good news is we have a little bit more than seven to eight per site directly next door. And it is its own site.

And so when we build this, ultimately, there will be connections to activate the fans. But during the construction, it is not going to impact our ability to conduct operations. So unlike the renovation we just did, it is something separate into state. And then we will bridge over to it during the construction process, but it will not be disrupted.

David Katz: Perfect. And if I can ask one quick follow-up on the strategic, you know, evolution in Macau. You talked about reinvestment rates, but I wanted to ask about credit and whether that is, you know, a tool that you would be using and how that starts to show up. Does it sort of show up maybe later on in and, you know, on the cost side of the equation? Is there any of that in there that we should be keeping our eye out for?

Grant Chum: No. I think in terms of the credit base play, it is a very small portion of our overall GGR traditionally, and we have been doing this for two decades. We extend credit to some premium patrons in the direct rolling programs. But it has been a consistent practice of ours, and we are very experienced in it. But it is not a significant part of the GGR.

David Katz: Okay. Thank you.

Rob Goldstein: Sure. Thank you.

Operator: Thank you. Your next question is coming from John DeCree from CBRE. Your line is live.

John DeCree: Hi, everyone. Thanks for taking my questions. Wanted to ask one about your retail mall portfolio, particularly retail sales. We are seeing a little bit of acceleration in Mainland China. It looks like in Macau, you have seen a little bit of lift in the two Q as well. We got a lot of questions about the sustainability of GGR growth, which you have fielded already today, but curious if you could give us some thoughts on what you are seeing in the retail mall, particularly on the luxury side of things.

Grant Chum: Thanks for the question. The retail mall tenant sales are starting to see a good recovery. In the second quarter. So we were in positive tenant sales year on year basis. We are growing by about 10% across the retail mall portfolio in Macau. And within that, luxury is still relatively weaker versus the rest of the portfolio. But we did start to see within the quarter signs that even the luxury sales were improving. Partly because also we have been introducing some pretty amazing flagship stores in some of the key luxury brands. In the portfolio. So you will continue to see that being a feature of the Four Seasons more into the beginning of 2026.

So there are some improvements that we are making ourselves that should help to lift the luxury sales portion of more. But overall, we are happy to see that Moore is back in a positive sales territory, double-digit growth in the second quarter. Compared to last year.

John DeCree: Great. Thanks, Grant. If I could follow-up with one big picture question about visitation. So visitation from Mainland ex Guangdong, which you have highlighted in your slide deck, is kind of sluggish to recovery relative to the day trippers in the Bay Area. Pretty big opportunity. So feel curious given your room base in Macau, it seems like this is probably a your views if there is an opportunity and what can be done to kind of help Macau start to penetrate deeper into Mainland and see some of that visitation outside of Guangdong come back.

Grant Chum: It is a great question. I think Ben and his tech has the breakout of the provinces visitation. As compared to 2019. It is on page 20 of the deck. I think what you see is, yes, you are right. Overall, excluding Guangdong, the recovery of visitation is still lagging. But within that, it is very uneven. So some of the wealthier coastal provinces and the major cities we are seeing recovery beyond the 2019 visitation levels. And some of the other provinces are lagging. Much more significantly. So I agree. It is an opportunity.

And I think Macau and the operators are continuously doing the destination marketing road shows across the different parts of mainland China as well as overseas, and that will continue. Transportation is continuing to improve in terms of pricing and connectivity. And, of course, the availability of hotel rooms and, of course, we have been adding high-quality inventory as have some other operators as well. So we accept all of those factors to drive better penetration in the non-Guangdong. Visitation numbers. Especially helping to drive that overnight visitation, which is clearly the highest spending segment. But that said, the overall hotel inventory in Macau is not significantly growing. So that will continue to add as a constraint.

On the overall overnight visitation. But I think what you see is a continued improvement in the quality of the tourism. Coming to stay overnight in Macau.

John DeCree: That is really helpful. Thanks a lot, Grant. Thanks all.

Operator: Thank you. Your next question is coming from Steve Wieczynski from Stifel. Your line is live.

Steve Wieczynski: Hey, guys. Good afternoon. Most of my questions have been answered, so just one for me. So Robert or Patrick, I mean, as we think about Singapore and Patrick, you mentioned just you guys just started construction on IR two. But, you know, based on what you have witnessed, you know, over the last six months, eight months coming out of IR one and the kind of the crazy numbers that you guys have been putting up over there out of IR one. Has that changed your internal return assumptions for IR two at this point?

Patrick Dumont: I do not think so. Look, I think we generally have a view that Marina Bay Sands and Singapore is an investment-driven story. And so the more we invest in high-quality assets, the better service levels we have, the more we are going to have pricing power, we are going to be able to differentiate our products, and the more high-value tourism we will be able to bring in. And of that, we will get more revenue, we will get more EBITDA. So you are seeing that happen this quarter in Singapore. It is the full product, full power of our sweet products. The full power of our food and beverage offerings, our mice offerings. Everything is really coming together.

All the entertainment we do, high level of service, but we have a great premium mass customer base there. Look, the shopping all the other things that we have added, it is really a very unique lifestyle program that we offer to people. And so for us, IR two is just an extension of that. You know, look, our goal is to have the best hotel in the world there. Have the best gaming experience, the best food and beverage, and then have this live entertainment venue the likes of which we have never had before in terms of to be able to drive customer visitation. So feel very strongly about this.

You know, it is a $6 billion investment, $2 billion of a premium that we have to pay the government. And we feel very strongly about the quality of that investment in work and go. So adjustment in models is not where we are at now. It is a very long way away. You know, we have got a couple of years before it opens, but in our mind, this quarter and actually to be fair, what we have been seeing in the quarters leading up to this in terms of the high quality of patron that we have. Just validates the fact that we feel very strongly this will be a high-quality investment.

And so while we have not adjusted our models, in any formal way, I think this just validates long term in our minds. The quality of the market and the strength of Singapore.

Steve Wieczynski: Okay. Gotcha. Appreciate that, Patrick.

Patrick Dumont: Thanks, Steve.

Operator: Thank you. That completes our Q&A session. Everyone, this concludes today's event. You may disconnect at this time and have a wonderful day. We thank you for your participation.

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